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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/01/2007 : 05:30:20 [Permalink]
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Ya forgot this one... 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 05/01/2007 05:31:48 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 09:44:02 [Permalink]
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| Dont forget also that 40 days of food and water takes up just as much/more space as the animals themselves... |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 11:17:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Dont forget also that 40 days of food and water takes up just as much/more space as the animals themselves...
Some years back, we argued this one on TWeb. The fundie thought was that Noah used a sort of Purina-style, pelleted processed food that all aboard could survive on.
My excellent rebuttal was to the effect of: Ok, fine. Now we have to not only account for a major (for the period) shipyard, but a feed manufacturing plant as well. I don't remember the Bible, nor any other, historical document, saying anything about either such, and both would be extraordinary accomplishments for the Bronze Age.
As might be expected, the conversation got a bit less coherent from there -- don't recall (or care) how it came out.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 05/01/2007 : 11:26:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Dont forget also that 40 days of food and water takes up just as much/more space as the animals themselves...
Or, maybe the flood lasted longer. The Inerrant Word of God is confused on the issue: quote:
Genesis 7:17
And the flood was forty days upon the earth.
Genesis 7:24
And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
Genesis 8:3
And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the one hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 11:39:39 [Permalink]
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| Sounds like it rained for 40 and stayed flooded for 150...either way 40 days is ridiculous enough, let alone 150. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 12:25:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Dont forget also that 40 days of food and water takes up just as much/more space as the animals themselves...
Some years back, we argued this one on TWeb. The fundie thought was that Noah used a sort of Purina-style, pelleted processed food that all aboard could survive on.
My excellent rebuttal was to the effect of: Ok, fine. Now we have to not only account for a major (for the period) shipyard, but a feed manufacturing plant as well. I don't remember the Bible, nor any other, historical document, saying anything about either such, and both would be extraordinary accomplishments for the Bronze Age.
As might be expected, the conversation got a bit less coherent from there -- don't recall (or care) how it came out.
Heh! The Bronze Age was for the boffins in the civilized areas of the world. The ancient Hebrew sheep-herding Bedouins were probably Neolithic wanderers. Hell, even the idea of using well-knapped stone is giving extra credit to a tribe for whom an jawbone of an ass was a state-of-the-art weapon of mass destruction.
Actually the jawbone was a much later technological development, a discovery by Samson. And even he just threw this marvelous new weapon away when he was finished doing God's work. From Judges:quote:
15:15 And he found a new jawbone of an ass, and put forth his hand, and took it, and slew a thousand men therewith.
15:16 And Samson said, With the jawbone of an ass, heaps upon heaps, with the jaw of an ass have I slain a thousand men.
15:17 And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking, that he cast away the jawbone out of his hand, and called that place Ramathlehi.
Imagining that a rootless desert people -- who could probably not construct a rain-proof house -- would be capable of building a huge, water-tight, ocean-going vessel is the height of hilarity.
The Bible's Noah tale demonstrates that the grand tradition of Jewish humor is a lot older than most people think it is.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 05/01/2007 12:47:46 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 14:39:23 [Permalink]
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We are, of course, overlooking one of the major apologetics for the Noah story.
Noah only took 2 of each "kind" of creature on the ark.
So, ya know, 2 birds, 2 cats, 2 dogs, and so on.... no need to load up the boat with repeats of the same "kind"!
That leaves plenty of room for food and stuff.
But it also leaves unexplained just how all humans are supposed to be descended from Noah's family. Lots and lots of inbreeding and incest goin on there....
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 18:38:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
But it also leaves unexplained just how all humans are supposed to be descended from Noah's family. Lots and lots of inbreeding and incest goin on there....
The apologetics for inbreeding is that Noah's and his family's genes were perfect, and the shielding water in the firmament protected the genes from harmful cosmic radiation. It wasn't until Noah the genes started to mutate (deteriorate) to create the diversity in the genes we have today. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 18:54:40 [Permalink]
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Also, if the water covered all the mountains of the Earth, Noah would have been sailing somewhere up above Mt. Everest. Any idea of how that much water would effect the density of the atmosphere? Someone else on another blog said that the compressed air would have increased the average temperature to somewhere around 400 degrees Celsius.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 05/01/2007 18:55:38 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 19:15:02 [Permalink]
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I read some calculation once of the ammount of water needed to cover the whole earth to the top of everest, and the energy that would have been released by that much water falling in a mere 40 days... more than enough to rip the earth apart (but since god-did-it, the argument is futile) it just illustrates the absurdity of the whole thing.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 03:38:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
I read some calculation once of the ammount of water needed to cover the whole earth to the top of everest, and the energy that would have been released by that much water falling in a mere 40 days... more than enough to rip the earth apart (but since god-did-it, the argument is futile) it just illustrates the absurdity of the whole thing.
The calculation you want is here. I think it was Dave W who found a mistake in the atmospheric part, but the rest of it is sound. quote:
Dr. Marty Leipzig looks at the mathematics of 'Noah's Flood.'
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Date: 09-02-99 10:11
From: Marty Leipzig
Hey, Georgie. The cretinists at the ICR, AIG, CRC and a half-dozen other fundy-run shill organizations absolutely insist on the Flood of Noah" being global (meaning ALL the world, to your limited deference). To them, your claim that it was local makes you the infidel.
Shocking. When you're obviously nothing more than a nescient schmuck.
Hell, I'm just taking what they claim and agreeing it to death.
Viz:
First- the global flood supposedly (Scripturally) covered the planet, (see that, George? If so, why are you still being so stupid?) and Mount Everest is 8,848 meters tall. The diameter of the earth at the equator, on the other hand, is 12,756.8 km. All we have to do is calculate the volume of water to fill a sphere with a radius of the Earth + Mount Everest; then we subtract the volume of a sphere with a radius of the Earth. Now, I know this won't yield a perfect result, because the Earth isn't a perfect sphere, but it will serve to give a general idea about the amounts involved.
So, here are the calculations:
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2007 : 11:17:29 [Permalink]
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And as expected, here 'tis, the forth article down (the others are a hoot as well): quote:
4. AP: “New Noah's Ark ready to sail”
Johan Huibers' one-fifth-scale replica of the famous boat opened its big door to visitors last Saturday in the Dutch city of Schagen. The replica was built “mostly with [Huibers's] own hands” as “a testament to his faith in the literal truth of the Bible.”
The Associated Press describes the cedar-and-pine Ark replica in “old biblical measurements,” putting it at “150 cubits long, 30 cubits high and 20 cubits wide […] two-thirds the length of a football field and as high as a three-story house.” Huibers began construction just two years ago.
Unsurprisingly, the AP reports visitors “stunned” reaction to the Ark replica. One quotation is particularly telling:
“It's past comprehension,” said Mary Louise Starosciak, who happened to be bicycling by with her husband while on vacation when they saw the ark looming over the local landscape.
“I knew the story of Noah, but I had no idea the boat would have been so big.”
If people are so surprised at the size of a one-fifth-scale replica of the Ark, imagine the awe that the real Ark would inspire! Yet sadly, ignorance of the size of the Ark has led many to doubt the historicity of the Flood account in Genesis. Flooded by images of small, sea-unworthy “bathtub arks,” many assume the true Ark could never have accommodated enough animal life. In reality, careful consideration of the actual size of the Ark, its dimensions, and the animals it was required to host confirms the historicity of the Ark account.
There was another early this morning, but It must have been taken down.
Edit: Found it! I knew it was lurking around in there, somewhere.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 05/06/2007 11:20:58 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2007 : 14:10:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Also, if the water covered all the mountains of the Earth, Noah would have been sailing somewhere up above Mt. Everest. Any idea of how that much water would effect the density of the atmosphere? Someone else on another blog said that the compressed air would have increased the average temperature to somewhere around 400 degrees Celsius.
Why would the air be compressed? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2007 : 15:05:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Also, if the water covered all the mountains of the Earth, Noah would have been sailing somewhere up above Mt. Everest. Any idea of how that much water would effect the density of the atmosphere? Someone else on another blog said that the compressed air would have increased the average temperature to somewhere around 400 degrees Celsius.
Why would the air be compressed?
According to Marty Leipzig, it would not. The lighter gasses would boil off into space, thinning the atmosphere when the waters receded. Others have said that this wouldn't happen. I've thought about it for considerable time, and tend to agree with Leipzig. Unfortunatly, I don't have the maths nor science to confirm it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2007 : 15:11:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
The calculation you want is here. I think it was Dave W who found a mistake in the atmospheric part, but the rest of it is sound.
Not so much a mistake, but I question Leipzig's assertion that the atmosphere, raised up by five miles or water, would necessarily "boil off" into space.
There is a mistake in the math. Leipzig's conversion from cubic kilometers to cubic meters is off by a factor of one thousand when he calculates the mass of all that water. Instead of 4.525×1021 kg, he should have gotten 4.525×1024 kg.
Unfortunately, that fact itself sorta kills the atmosphere boiling off bit, since 4.525×1024 kg is 75% of the mass of the Earth itself. The extra five miles would diminish the force of gravity by one quarter of one percent, but it'd still be the case that surface gravity on top of all that water would be over 1.74 times Earth normal. That'd keep quite a bit of atmosphere in place.
And quite a lot for Noah, his family, and all those animals to cope with for most of a year. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dutch Ark set to launch
