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 An analysis of Ray Comfort's crap.
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2558 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2007 :  13:13:06  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote


I'm just getting ready to email those guys with some extra points that I think would rebut their arguments and I want to make sure that, besides including the link to the Iron Chariots rebuttal of them, I've gotten more suggestions from the people here.

--------------------------------------------


Ray asks Kirk, "Didn't you used to be an atheist?"

Kirk responds, "Yeah, I did. I used to be a devout atheist and that sounds a little strange but I was committed to my belief that God didn't exist. And this really wasn't based on anything other than what I had learned in school. I thought that evolution was responsible for everything that's around and that God was something that people just invented in their minds as an emotional crutch or as some sort of an answer to the questions that they couldn't figure out themselves. And I've since learned that when you really look at the evidence, the truth is, it takes more faith to be an atheist than it does to believe in God, you've really gotta ignore the facts."

So what does evolution by itself have to do with it? Many christians and muslims, etc figure "god" used evolution to do the creating. Just "believing" in evolution by itself wouldn't make one be an atheist. Even when Dawkins said that evolution made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist, he didn't say that evolution made it mandatory.


Ray says, "Kirk, I have an intellectually stimulating theory. It's my theory of where the soda can may have come from. Billions of years ago, there was a big bang in space. Nobody knows what caused the big bang, it just happened. And from this bang issued this huge rock, on top of the rock was found a sweet, brown bubbly substance. And over millions of years, aluminum crept up the side, formed itself with a can and a lid and then a tab. And then millions of years later, red paint, blue paint, white paint fell from the sky and formed itself into the words '12 fluid ounces - Do not litter'."

Continuing, "You're saying, 'What are you doing, you're insulting my intellect' - and so I am. Because we know, if the can is made there must be a maker. If it's designed there must be a designer. To believe the soda can happened by chance is to move into an intellectual-free zone... is to have an echo when you think... is to have brain liposuction."

What's to stop someone from asking how did something as complex as your god come about then? Wouldn't that same reasoning apply to him/her? After all, humans are more complex than soda cans, so you think that we've been designed, so what about the complexity of your god?
Besides, your analogy is invalid anyway:

1) Soda cans are known to be formed mainly from physical not chemical or biological means.

2) The soda can is made of aluminum atoms which can't form the 4 covalent atomic bonds that carbon can. What that means, is that for aluminum to be involved in anything of complexity, it'd have to be artificial. Whereas carbon bonds can under various circumstances form very complex molecules. Even in outer space where scientists have used spectrographic readings of telescope measurments and have found organic molecules in space.

As to the formaton of carbon and other "heavy" elements, they form in the nuclear furnaces we call stars. When they start running out of hydrogen and helium, those atoms start to collide and form heavier elements. Even the metals, though in small amounts.

Your analogy is comparing apples and oranges.


Ray holds up a banana and continues with, "Behold, the atheists' nightmare. Now if you study a well-made banana, you'll find, on the far side, there are 3 ridges. On the close side, two ridges. If you get your hand ready to grip a banana, you'll find on the far side there are three grooves, on the close side, two grooves. The banana and the hand are perfectly made, one for the other. You'll find the maker of the banana, Almighty God, has made it with a non-slip surface. It has outward indicators of inward contents - green, too early - yellow, just right - black, too late. Now if you go to the top of the banana, you'll find, as with the soda can makers have placed a tab at the top, so God has placed a tab at the top. When you pull the tab, the contents don't squirt in your face. You'll find a wrapper which is biodegradable, has perforations. Notice how gracefully it sits over the human hand. Notice it has a point at the top for ease of entry. It's just the right shape for the human mouth. It's chewy, easy to digest and its even curved toward the face to make the whole process so much easier. Seriously, Kirk, the whole of creation testifies to the genius of God's creation."

Besides that being refuted on the Hellbound Allee show, there is the problem of how coconuts are built. That, and the fact that the modern banana has come about through selective breeding by man, not god.

Ray, "When I look at a building, how can I know there was a builder? Can't see him, hear him, touch him, taste him or smell him, so how can I know there was a builder? Well, the building is absolute proof there was a builder. I couldn't want better proof that there was a builder than to have the building as evidence."

Just see the soda can rebuttal above. Same thing. Well, that and you have to show that it was YOUR builder who made it, not just that it was "built"! Same with paintings and painters, cars,...etc.

Kirk continues with, "Is it really intelligent to say that this car has no maker, that it just 'happened'? How much less intelligent is it to say that the human body has no maker and there is no designer?"

Check out the human fossil record.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/compare.html

In particular, have a look at the charts where creationists can't keep it clear on which is human, and which is ape, despite them supposed to be different "kinds"!

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and God-head; so that they are without excuse." - Romans 1:20


Same mistake that the bible (and likely other holy books have made, I suspect!) They each have to prove the existence of their god. Christianity has it worse, because you people have to prove the divinity of christ, not just some generic "god". Remember, it's believing on, and trusting in christ that's supposed to save you. At least since the New Testament. Now, what in nature proclaims Christ himself?


Ray, "I looked down and I saw that there were seven leaves on the ground, so I bent down and I put them in a straight line, went into my office and sat down and waited for my wife to come in and say what I thought she'd say. It was very predictable. She walked in, sat down and said, "Why did you put those leaves like that, for?" See, there was no way her reasoning mind could believe that seven leaves fell off the avocado tree and fell into a [sound effect] straight line of seven leaves. She knew that that an intelligent mind, mine, had put them there."


Note the "face on mars" example the Iron Chariots people use, and I'll ignore the obvious set up of how you automatically assume that an intelligent mind, yours, had put the leaves there.

Some jokes are just too easy. Though seeing as how you talk down to and insult atheists throughout this little piece of yours, you deserve to have that joke thrown in your face.



Ray introduces us to the "atheist test" which begins with two questions:
"Could you please tell me how many pieces of sand are on the combined islands of Hawaii?"
"Could you please tell me how many hairs are on the back of a fully-grown, male Tibetan yak?"


Ray, "Now these are necessary, these questions, because there are some people who think they know everything. God used a similar principle with Job. He asked Job seventy questions, one after the other, until, in essence, Job laid his hand upon his mouth and said, "Boy I hardly know anything."

Ray, "So, here is the test. Let's say this circle [circle graphic appears on screen] represents all the knowledge in the known universe. Someone who is omniscient, who has all knowledge, knows everything about everything. They know how many hairs are on every head, every thought of every heart, every atom is splayed before them, all history is before their eyes. They know all about the secret love life of the fleas on the back of Napoleon's great-grandmother's black cat. They're omniscient, they know everything."

Ray, "Let's say, mister professing atheist, that you know an incredible one percent of all the knowledge in the universe. Is it possible, in the ninety-nine percent of the knowledge you haven't yet come across, there is ample evidence to prove that god exists?"


Actually, all we have to do is note that the the christian, who has found the "one true god" of the universe would have to had already scoured the entire universe to find this "one true god" of theirs, and then all we have to do is examine the evidence for this last remaining god. Thanks for doing all the footwork for us.

All we have to do then is disprove one single, solitary bible verse and the game's over.

By the way, "mister professing christian", isn't there a bible verse that says that if you believe in god/christ, whoever, that you can drink poison and not be harmed?



Street Interviews
Interview 1
Ray, "So, obviously, everything made, like a car, has a maker. When you look at creation, don't you think to yourself there must be a creator? There's flowers, birds, trees, sun, moon, stars, the seasons, the human eye, the mind, everything has intricacies and it's uh, wonderfully made and it has order from atoms right up through the universe. Don't you think someone who said, "No one made the car" would be lacking in brainery? For someone to say, "No one created creation"...this doesn't make sense, it's not logical. Do you think that's a fair argument?"


About as fair as saing that it's not logical that something as obviously complex as your god would have to be to have no creator himself. Again, see the earlier responses dealing with your soda can stuff above.


Ray, "Would you consider yourself to be a good person?"
And the relevance of that question to proving that your god exists in the first place is....?

Chris, "Yes"
Ray, "Can I ask you a few questions to see if it's true?"
Chris, "Sure."
Ray, "Have you ever told a lie?"
Chris, "Sure."
Ray, "Ok, what does that make you?"
Chris, "A liar." Ray, "Have you ever stolen something?"
Chris, "Uh, as a kid." Ray, "What does that make you?"
Chris, "I guess, uh, a thief." Ray, "Uh huh. Have you ever used God's name in vain?"
Chris, "Sure."
Ray, "That's using God's name as a cuss word, it's called blasphemy. And the final question, as, in this respect, Jesus said, "Whoever looks at a woman and lusts after her has already committed adultery already with her in his heart", have you ever looked at a woman with lust?"
Chris, "Sure."
Ray, "Ok, Chris, by your own admission, you're a lying, thieving, blasphemous, adulterer at heart and you've gotta face..."
Chris, "Those are just words."
Here's a tip, Ray. Putting the fear of "god" into people to make them convert will only work if they already believe in your god! After all, if a Muslim did that kind of stunt with you and showed that you didn't live up to the standards laid out in the Koran, would that make you convert to Islam?

Ray, "Yeah, and you're testing the law of sin and death. If you die in your sins, the Bible says you'll have to face a holy creator, who's seen your full life, who gave you a conscience, and he's gonna judge you by the secret sins you've committed in darkness that nobody's seen because he's a god of justice. You know what god did, so you wouldn't have to go to hell? Any idea?"
Chris, "Just whatever the Bible says, I suppose."
Ray, "What do you think he did for you? It's something really wonderful"
Chris, "He died for me?"
Ray, "Jesus died on the cross for you, taking your punishment. That's what the Bible teaches. It's called the gospel and it means 'good news' that Jesus paid your fines so you wouldn't have to come under God's wrath."
Ok, if Jesus was supposed to "take" our punishment, then why is it that he only spent 3 days in the tomb whereas if any of us takes that punishment, it's an ETERNITY in hell? Care to explain how 3 days for him is supposed to be the same as an eternity for any one of us? After all, he was supposed to have eternally existed before he came to earth, and he's supposed to exist eternally after he left. Yet we, who have only finite lives are the ones who wind up with the bigger punishment.

Isn't that like being fined a million dollars for something in a civil suit, then some rich guy comes along, slaps down a fiver and the judge says that "the punishment's been paid in your behalf"? Doesn't that seem slightly ridiculous?


Ray, "Chris, he defeated your greatest enemy...your greatest fear, death itself and all you have to do to see if it's true is obey the gospel. Repent, don't just confess your sins to god, turn from them. And trust in Jesus like you'd trust a parachute. Put your faith in it. And the moment you do that, God says he'll forgive your sins and grant you everlasting life and you'll pass out of death into life and you'll come to know the god that you just didn't know existed."
So, let's see. If a Muslim came up to you and said:

"all you have to do to see if it's true is obey the Koran. Repent, don't just confess your sins to allah, turn from them. And trust in Allah like you'd trust a parachute. Put your faith in it. And the moment you do that, Allah says he'll forgive your sins and grant you everlasting life and you'll pass out of death into life and you'll come to know the god that you just didn't know existed." would you believe that that is a legitimate way to prove the truthfulness of Islam? If not, then why is it in your mind, a legitimate way for a doubter to see if christianity is true?


(Ray, continuing to try to guilt trip Chris:
Ray, "So we all need the Saviour, we all need to repent. There's not a righteous man on the face of the Earth. And Chris, you said you're a good person and by man's standard that's true, there are plenty of people worse than you, but God's not gonna judge you by man's standard, which is very low, he's gonna judge you by holiness, justice, truth and righteousness. And you are in a prison and you're facing capital punishment. You're waiting to die. We've got a big blue roof here with good air conditioning and good lighting, but you're waiting to die. You're on death's row. One day, death will seize upon you and that's because God's proclaimed upon you the death sentence. The soul that sins, it shall die. And God offers you a reprieve..and your wife...and your children. If you love them, open your heart and say, "God, I need to know the truth, because I don't want to wait until I'm burying a loved one before I open my heart to you and ask the things, about the things that really matter." So, think of your family and how you should lead them into the knowledge of everlasting life..and your wife. And if you've got all these blessings you should be abounding with thanksgiving to the God that gave you life and not denying his existence. You should be saying, "God, I'm so sorry I've delivered my back to you, you've lavished your goodness upon me. My brain, my eyes, my wife, my children, my health, this wonderful free country we've got. God I yield my life back to you." And he'll transform you on the inside and make you a new person and give you a new heart with new desires."
Two easy points:
1) Again, what' to stop an Islamic from going through that whole spiel of yours above then saying:

"You should be saying, "Allah, I'm so sorry I've delivered my back to you, you've lavished your goodness upon me. My brain, my eyes, my wife, my children, my health, this wonderful free country we've got. Allah I yield my life back to you." And he'll transform you on the inside and make you a new person and give you a new heart with new desires." "

2) Look at that last sentence. "And he'll transform you on the inside and make you a new person and give you a new heart with new desires." If there was any truth to that, then there wouldn't be any cases of clergy abuse in the catholic and other churches, now, would there? Homosexuality actually would be "cured". Whereas in reality, the APA studies show the opposite.


Kirk, "So now that we've given you some ways to make an atheist backslide or, how to prove that the atheist doesn't exist, in other words, he's really not an atheist, he's an agnostic, someone who doesn't know if there's a god, we wanna emphasize the principle of swinging from the intellect, straight to the conscience. It's so important to know that by doing this, you're not side-stepping the questions of the atheist, but you have to learn that it's not wise to stay in the intellect and wrestle with someone intellectually, because it's gonna take you down a rabbit trail and waste all your time."

Kirk, "You've eventually got to get to the heart. A surgeon's not gonna spend all his time working on your dandruff when he knows he needs to cut into the heart and get to where the real problem is. And that's what we do when we ask a person if they consider themselves to be a good person. We just deliberately make that turn, and go for the conscience."


In other words, you people ARE going to side-step any questions the athiest may have, and just try to appeal to emotion.


Absolute Proof of God
Kirk, "Well, mister or misses atheist, there is absolute proof. God says that he will show himself to you personally, if you'll do one thing. Listen to what Jesus said, in the Bible, "He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me and he that loves me shall be loved by my father and I will love him and will manifest myself to him." So here Jesus is saying he will manifest or reveal himself to you, if you will obey his commandments."


Again, what if a Muslim were to challenge you like that? Would you consider that to be "absolute proof" of Islam? It sounds more like just plain circular reasoning mixed with blind faith (or a blind shot in the dark) to me.


Kirk, " Now, does that mean Jesus will, um, appear before your eyes or you'll hear his voice? No. Jesus means that he will demonstrate his reality and his power by changing your heart, if you will obey the gospel."


Too bad christians still sin. Tell me, if you were to give that "Are You A Good Person" test to even the most devout christian after they've been "saved", do you think that they'd pass or fail according to your god's perfect standard? If they all would fail, then what would that say about the success in Jesus's power in changing people's hearts? Would that not match up better with people just trying to be better on their own and failing anyway (though perhaps is some cases hopefully doing better than before)?

How good an "absolute proof" is that?


Kirk, "Listen to your conscience and say, "God, if you're there, I know I've sinned against you, please forgive me. Change my heart, make me the person that you want me to be, and this day I commit to trust and obey Jesus Christ, who died to save me." If you'll do that, God promises to show himself to you. Now, either that's true or it isn't. "
Thanks for the set up, Kirk.




10 Commandments are the hook

Ray, "The hook is God's law, that is the Ten Commandments."
Kirk, "That's right, because everybody knows, when you bring out those commandments, that they've, that they've violated them, that they've broken them and that they're going to need God's forgiveness on the day of judgment. And it's a good, strong hook that we should never fail to use when we're sharing our faith."


That's only assuming that "they" all already believe in your god. Otherwise, if they don't believe he or she exists, then why would they need his or her forgiveness on the "day of judgement"? You're assuming one of the very things you guys are trying to prove here, aren't you?



>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.

Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2007 :  14:32:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
1) Soda cans are known to be formed mainly from physical not chemical or biological means.
...
...
Your analogy is comparing apples and oranges.

It's not so much "apples and organges" as "apples and tupperware" - or, even more appropriately, "coke cans and anything that is alive". IDists, of course, love to argue from analogies. While this can be useful, you have to make sure that the analogy is good and accurately represents a valid comparison. Dish washers, motors and coke cans are, as anyone with even a VERY basic understanding of biology can see, quite different from bacteria, plants and humans. The main difference being that the former never reproduce.

METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden!
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend

275 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2007 :  15:05:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send perrodetokio a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That guy, Ray, is an imbecile, and people who are convinced by his arguments have to be morons.

Having a strong christian background I could make a much better argument in favour of godīs existence, maybe not one that would stand to close scrutiny using the scientific method, but a much better argument that a "regular joe" would swallow. Of course I am not going to give these nuts any ammo, however flawed it is.

I canīt believe itīs people like him (Ray) who are succeeding in making ordinary people leave their better judgement aside.

"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott

"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott

"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott
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smoke
New Member

USA
32 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2007 :  23:52:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit smoke's Homepage Send smoke a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with everything that you said except these:

Originally posted by the_ignored

2) Whereas carbon bonds can under various circumstances form very complex molecules. Even in outer space where scientists have used spectrographic readings of telescope measurments and have found organic molecules in space.


"very complex" meaning the proteins which are unsuitable for life because of their 50% left and right amino acids. And don't fool yourself; organic molecules are molecules with carbon in them.


Check out the human fossil record.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/compare.html

In particular, have a look at the charts where creationists can't keep it clear on which is human, and which is ape, despite them supposed to be different "kinds"!


In my opinion, the first two are extinct species of monkeys, and the rest are all human.


Now, what in nature proclaims Christ himself?[/red]


Christ is God as per the introduction of the Gospel of John.


Actually, all we have to do is note that the the christian, who has found the "one true god" of the universe would have to had already scoured the entire universe to find this "one true god" of theirs, and then all we have to do is examine the evidence for this last remaining god. Thanks for doing all the footwork for us.


Actually no. If it were shown beyond a reasonable doubt that the historical Jesus was the biblical Christ then all other belief and nonbelief systems immediately evaporate. If you were to show that isn't true, you'd have to do all the work yourself, which is never going to be done because you have to disprove religions that were either never revealed to the public (i.e. special revelations to one man some time ago), and ones from the future.


All we have to do then is disprove one single, solitary bible verse and the game's over.


Which results in forums such as these with endless quibbles about out of context verses so that the work that has to be done in scholarship won't have to. But lucky for you ignorance and laziness are not sins.


About as fair as saing that it's not logical that something as obviously complex as your god would have to be to have no creator himself. Again, see the earlier responses dealing with your soda can stuff above.


Talk about comparing apples with oranges. The physical laws of the universe are not a restriction on the uncharted by definition supernatural.

Ok, if Jesus was supposed to "take" our punishment, then why is it that he only spent 3 days in the tomb whereas if any of us takes that punishment, it's an ETERNITY in hell? Care to explain how 3 days for him is supposed to be the same as an eternity for any one of us? After all, he was supposed to have eternally existed before he came to earth, and he's supposed to exist eternally after he left. Yet we, who have only finite lives are the ones who wind up with the bigger punishment.


It would have been even less than 3 days had it not been for Jonah who spent 3 days in the stomach of a whale. The answer to your question is because the spirit is immortal so it cannot die, thus it is in Hell forever. The physical body dies after a while. If you put your faith in Christ you won't get the "bigger punishment." If Christ had sinned He would have gone to the same place that you say is unfair for the unbelievers to go.


Isn't that like being fined a million dollars for something in a civil suit, then some rich guy comes along, slaps down a fiver and the judge says that "the punishment's been paid in your behalf"? Doesn't that seem slightly ridiculous?


Jesus paid for our sins what we would have paid in Hell. He didn't "slap down a fiver"...He slapped down a million dollars for everyone.



Too bad christians still sin. Tell me, if you were to give that "Are You A Good Person" test to even the most devout christian after they've been "saved", do you think that they'd pass or fail according to your god's perfect standard? If they all would fail, then what would that say about the success in Jesus's power in changing people's hearts?


Most probably would, but not necessarily all. One candidate for that is Paul himself. However, a true Christian will not continue in the path of sin.


Would that not match up better with people just trying to be better on their own and failing anyway (though perhaps is some cases hopefully doing better than before)?


And the Bible agrees with you regarding the nature of those who continued in their sinful lifestyle after their repentance,

2 Peter 2:21, 'It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."'


As a further note, the old anti-atheist argument that "he needs to know everything in the universe and beyond to know that there is no God/gods, which in turn would make him/her divine themself..." is hogwash. Proof of that kind only exists in mathematics. The kind of proof here is proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

He does not answer when men cry out because of the arrogance of the wicked. Indeed, God does not listen to their empty plea; the Almighty pays no attention to it.

Job 35:12-13
Edited by - smoke on 05/09/2007 23:54:33
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2007 :  01:35:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd respond.. but is there really a point? Well, maybe.

Anyone with the obvious anthropological and palaeontological knowledge Smoke so clearly has (thanks for clearing up the classification of those hominid fossils) must be well trained in the sciences with years or decades of experience.

So when can we expect to see your groundbreaking research published Smoke? When will you reveal to the world your new sytematics?

I mean, obviously all the people who have gone before you in the field have been wrong. The level of confidence you have in your work, to be able to dismiss the findings of 150 years of palaeontology with a simple sentence, must be extremely high.

We should be honored that you decided to share this amazing new insight and research with us before you have presented it to the world in one of the major journals. Shoot, I bet you could get this work published in Science, Nature, AND The Proceedings of the Royal Society all at the same time! Can't you just taste that Nobel Prize? Bet the Queen herself would make you an honorary knight! And you're a shoe-in for the US medal of freedom too. Since you have obviously revolutionized several fields of science singlehandedly and all.

Perhaps you'd be willing to share your reasoning with us on why Australopithecus robustus is actually a human? That should only comprise a small fraction of your new research, but would give us a chance to see what your new work is all about. I'm sure I speak for nearly everyone here when I say we'd be very very interested in a sample of your research!


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2007 :  02:02:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ray, "When I look at a building, how can I know there was a builder? Can't see him, hear him, touch him, taste him or smell him, so how can I know there was a builder? Well, the building is absolute proof there was a builder. I couldn't want better proof that there was a builder than to have the building as evidence."


Kirk continues with, "Is it really intelligent to say that this car has no maker, that it just 'happened'? How much less intelligent is it to say that the human body has no maker and there is no designer?"



I can look up the building permits and then go talk to the contractor and/or architect.

I can call the car assembly plant with the vin number and verify that they did, in fact, make the car in question.



That argument is nauseatingly stupid. Every single thing that we know has been designed and made, we can verify the designer and maker. Because we keep records of this shit and people sign their names to stuff.

Please show me the "made by god" seal that would have to be stamped into my ass for their argument to be even remotely plausible.

The appearance of design in nature is nothing but an argument from ignorance. A god-of-the-gaps bit of reasoning. We do not know our origin, so these lackwits feel the need to make up a story to explain it.



"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and God-head; so that they are without excuse." - Romans 1:20


The bible is a book written by... people. Just because the book says it is the word of some diety, or because other people insist it is, is not evidence for the claim.


Ray, "I looked down and I saw that there were seven leaves on the ground, so I bent down and I put them in a straight line, went into my office and sat down and waited for my wife to come in and say what I thought she'd say. It was very predictable. She walked in, sat down and said, "Why did you put those leaves like that, for?" See, there was no way her reasoning mind could believe that seven leaves fell off the avocado tree and fell into a [sound effect] straight line of seven leaves. She knew that that an intelligent mind, mine, had put them there."


I guess Ray has never seen a snowflake. I guess there are billions of little faries who fly around winter storms and chisel out all these patterns.


Ray introduces us to the "atheist test" which begins with two questions:
"Could you please tell me how many pieces of sand are on the combined islands of Hawaii?"
"Could you please tell me how many hairs are on the back of a fully-grown, male Tibetan yak?"


Ray, "Now these are necessary, these questions, because there are some people who think they know everything. God used a similar principle with Job. He asked Job seventy questions, one after the other, until, in essence, Job laid his hand upon his mouth and said, "Boy I hardly know anything."

Ray, "So, here is the test. Let's say this circle [circle graphic appears on screen] represents all the knowledge in the known universe. Someone who is omniscient, who has all knowledge, knows everything about everything. They know how many hairs are on every head, every thought of every heart, every atom is splayed before them, all history is before their eyes. They know all about the secret love life of the fleas on the back of Napoleon's great-grandmother's black cat. They're omniscient, they know everything."

Ray, "Let's say, mister professing atheist, that you know an incredible one percent of all the knowledge in the universe. Is it possible, in the ninety-nine percent of the knowledge you haven't yet come across, there is ample evidence to prove that god exists?"


Ray is a fucking moron. No scientist has EVER claimed to know everything. This argument (from incredulity?) is just Ray making shit up. Pure fabrication.


Ray, "The hook is God's law, that is the Ten Commandments."
Kirk, "That's right, because everybody knows, when you bring out those commandments, that they've, that they've violated them, that they've broken them and that they're going to need God's forgiveness on the day of judgment. And it's a good, strong hook that we should never fail to use when we're sharing our faith."


So.. an unrepentant liar can expect eternity in hell? Guess we'll be seeing Ray and Kirk there along with all of us atheists. Because they are a couple of lying shills.

No human capable of speech and advanced motor function (like eating a banana), who is even marginally literate, can possibly believe the shit these two fools spout. These tools are deliberate liars. The irony of lying to people in order to convert them to your faith (which forbids lying) is pretty extreme.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2007 :  02:04:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Smoke wrote:
If it were shown beyond a reasonable doubt that the historical Jesus was the biblical Christ then all other belief and nonbelief systems immediately evaporate.

The only way I can see that this logic can work is if we assume that the bible is true. So, you're essentially trying to prove the truth of the bible by assuming that it's true.

Mysterious are the ways...

METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2007 :  04:21:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Smoke, my fellow primate, what is the difference between a monkey and an ape?

If you are going to argue this sort of thing, you need to get the terms correct. We did not descend from monkeys, as is so often blathered by various YEC adherents, no. If you had read the text in the TO article(s), you would understand this, whether you accepted it or not.

The first two skulls are not extinct monkeys. In fact, they are not extinct at all (yet), nor are they even monkeys. They are of a gorilla and a chimpanzee, respectively. The rest are our ancestors.

And therein lies the rub, as the Bard has said: You guys simply don't read anything that might contradict your preconceptions. Sad on several levels.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 05/10/2007 06:17:52
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2007 :  07:37:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by smoke

In my opinion, the first two are extinct species of monkeys, and the rest are all human.
How embarrassing for you.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2007 :  07:38:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What a stupid debate that was. The whole thing was a yawner. I'm sorry I stayed up for it...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2007 :  09:24:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by smoke


Actually, all we have to do is note that the the christian, who has found the "one true god" of the universe would have to had already scoured the entire universe to find this "one true god" of theirs, and then all we have to do is examine the evidence for this last remaining god. Thanks for doing all the footwork for us.


Actually no. If it were shown beyond a reasonable doubt that the historical Jesus was the biblical Christ then all other belief and nonbelief systems immediately evaporate.

That is, if you prove the Bible is true in saying Christ = God. And that is unprovable by God's very own definitions. So it'd all boil down to saying a person who existed was written about in a book by ancient people.

I don't see how that's different from, say, Achilles or Helen of Troy... both of which were considered children of god(s).

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2007 :  18:57:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ray holds up a banana and continues with, "Behold, the atheists' nightmare.

Apparently God hates the US because the perfect food cannot be grown in 99% of the country.


If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2558 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2007 :  11:18:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by smoke


Now, what in nature proclaims Christ himself?


Christ is God as per the introduction of the Gospel of John.
You forgot, smoke, I was asking what in "nature" proclaims Christ? The bible goes on about how the natural world around us is supposed to point us towards "god" yet just having an idea of "god" from nature won't cut it, you have to know and accept "jesus".


"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and God-head; so that they are without excuse." - Romans 1:20


So that bible verse is useless. Even if someone looks at nature and starts worshipping "god" there's no guarantee that they'll have the right one. They need "the bible" not nature. Think of the people in North America around the time of the crucifiction. How could they be saved by looking at nature?



>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
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McQ
Skeptic Friend

USA
258 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2007 :  13:50:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send McQ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by furshur

Ray holds up a banana and continues with, "Behold, the atheists' nightmare.

Apparently God hates the US because the perfect food cannot be grown in 99% of the country.




Of course god hates the US. Haven't you been paying attention to Westboro Baptist Church?!!! Everytime I want a good "grown in the USA" banana and can't get one, I weep for my country and its doomed future.


Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Gillette
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2007 :  14:36:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by smoke
And don't fool yourself; organic molecules are molecules with carbon in them.
I don't want to seem sarcastic, but... wow! As if we didn't already knew that?



Check out the human fossil record.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/compare.html

In my opinion, the first two are extinct species of monkeys, and the rest are all human.
I don't know what standards you have, smoke, but you wouldn't catch me procreating with any of them under any circumstances short of being at gun point by someone I was certain would blow me away. (Yes, I do have strong sense of self-preservation...)


Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2007 :  16:11:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Originally posted by smoke
And don't fool yourself; organic molecules are molecules with carbon in them.
I don't want to seem sarcastic, but... wow! As if we didn't already knew that?



Check out the human fossil record.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/compare.html

In my opinion, the first two are extinct species of monkeys, and the rest are all human.
I don't know what standards you have, smoke, but you wouldn't catch me procreating with any of them under any circumstances short of being at gun point by someone I was certain would blow me away. (Yes, I do have strong sense of self-preservation...)


I don't know... maybe one of those cute little Hobbit babes...


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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