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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2007 :  12:53:44  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message
Compulsory government education has the intention of creating passive non-critical thinking cogs for society in which they are easily manipulated and controlled.




What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell

Edited by - JEROME DA GNOME on 05/19/2007 12:54:53

Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2007 :  13:22:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Compulsory government education has the intention of creating passive non-critical thinking cogs for society in which they are easily manipulated and controlled.
This would only be true if people like Jerome were the norm. Fortunately they aren't, and we can be confident that our very de-centralized educational system produces many smart, critical-thinkers who do things like win nobel prizes.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2007 :  14:41:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
<shrug> So like, home-school. Then, you can teach anything you want and tell the government to bugger off.

I fail to see the problem.






"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 05/19/2007 14:42:23
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2007 :  15:09:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
We had a good discussion in Wednesday chat, and Jerome said he would make a forum post on it. This wasn't exactly what I was expecting.

One of the main points of discussion was whether or not a centralized criteria for schools was a good thing. Jerome's argument was that this was the equivalent of eduction of the lowest common denominator. John made an excellent point that a high school diploma had to mean that you had at least some standard base of education, and possibly more, otherwise it would be almost meaningless.

Also discussed was whether or not wages of teachers should be increased. Among the points were that teachers have very few hours but also do a lot of work outside the class such as preparation and grading, and higher amounts of pay may increase the amount of "slackers" who choose to go into teaching, but it also may create competition in becoming a teacher.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2007 :  15:28:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Compulsory government education has the intention of creating passive non-critical thinking cogs for society in which they are easily manipulated and controlled.

Not in my country.

But then, I don't live in a fascist state.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2007 :  15:45:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
Originally posted by Ricky

We had a good discussion in Wednesday chat, and Jerome said he would make a forum post on it. This wasn't exactly what I was expecting.

One of the main points of discussion was whether or not a centralized criteria for schools was a good thing. Jerome's argument was that this was the equivalent of eduction of the lowest common denominator. John made an excellent point that a high school diploma had to mean that you had at least some standard base of education, and possibly more, otherwise it would be almost meaningless.

Also discussed was whether or not wages of teachers should be increased. Among the points were that teachers have very few hours but also do a lot of work outside the class such as preparation and grading, and higher amounts of pay may increase the amount of "slackers" who choose to go into teaching, but it also may create competition in becoming a teacher.

Interesting stuff, Ricky. In the States, at least, education at the high school level is pretty decentralized, it seems. But some standards (some level of math competency; a certain reading level; averaging 24 ppg as a starting forward; basic history; etc.) would be good, if only so that an employer might know what she or he is getting as an employee. We might also argue that at this stage in the game-- what with it being the early 21st century and all-- that people should just know certain things just to participate in society. Some things are just funnier that way.
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2007 :  16:10:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message
Filthy---"So like, home-school. Then, you can teach anything you want and tell the government to bugger off.

I fail to see the problem."


Most families can not afford home school as the taxes are to high for single incomes; not to mention the intrusion into the home from the state.

What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2007 :  16:18:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Filthy---"So like, home-school. Then, you can teach anything you want and tell the government to bugger off.

I fail to see the problem."


Most families can not afford home school as the taxes are to high for single incomes; not to mention the intrusion into the home from the state.
I'm confused. Does home-schooling add more taxes? And the state "intrusion" is also unclear. What do you mean, exactly?
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2007 :  16:28:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message
Cuneiformist---

Taxes are so high that dual incomes are in most cases necessary in america.

With two workers there is no one to home-school.

Home schooling allows the state to enter the home to a variety of degrees depending on the state.



What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2007 :  16:39:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Cuneiformist---

Taxes are so high that dual incomes are in most cases necessary in america.

With two workers there is no one to home-school.

Home schooling allows the state to enter the home to a variety of degrees depending on the state.
I find your first proposition to be absurd. Are taxes (income? property? utility? sales?) higher now than they were ten years ago? What about twenty? Thirty? Can you correlate tax rates (again-- which kinds?) with home school rates? Or are you just making unfounded assertions to support some grand conspiracy?

As for the second-- it's so vague as to have no meaning.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2007 :  17:44:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
Jerome:
Taxes are so high that dual incomes are in most cases necessary in america.

So, it couldn't be that things are just more expensive than they once were. Like healthcare for example? Taxes eh? That was also your main complaint about global warming. A world wide conspiracy of governments wanting to raise taxes, no less. Hmmmm…

So tell me, when did you break from libertarianism, as too fiscally liberal for you, in favor of anarchy? When exactly did you loose control over your paranoia?


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2007 :  18:00:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message
Compulsory government education has the intention of creating passive non-critical thinking cogs for society in which they are easily manipulated and controlled.

Did I miss something or is this statement missing anything to support it. Are we just supposed to believe this because you said so? All I get out of it is that you didn't like going to school or have decided to bad mouth for some other reason. I can't let an absurd claim like this go without some appeal for ANYTHING that might back it up.

@

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2007 :  18:16:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Public edgecashun bad, make brain hurt. Homeskooling worse, cost more taxes, and guvment mind controllers run it. Best me get no edgecashun. Yeah, now brain no hurt!


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2007 :  18:43:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
Since when are schools even teaching basic capitalism concepts or anything more than an overview of government? There's a distorted view of history of the US but that's about the most propaganda I can think of.

Jerome, post some curriculum you object to at least. Your statement is otherwise total fantasy.
Edited by - beskeptigal on 05/19/2007 18:44:00
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2007 :  18:58:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message
Kil---I agree, inflation is also a cost in American society that makes it necessary for two incomes.

Removing the backing of currency from real value causes inflation , but thats another topic.

High taxes and inflation combine to necessitate dual incomes where only one was needed in the past; thus the need is created for state education as no one is in the home to educate.


"in favor of anarchy"

Hardly, anarchy is no government. That would be a bad idea for the vast majority.



@tomic---I will present evidence of my statement. I just wanted to see others opinions which will provide direction to the conversation.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2007 :  19:03:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
There's a distorted view of history of the US but that's about the most propaganda I can think of.


There is? Such as?


Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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