Skeptic Friends Network

Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?
Home | Forums | Active Topics | Active Polls | Register | FAQ | Contact Us  
  Connect: Chat | SFN Messenger | Buddy List | Members
Personalize: Profile | My Page | Forum Bookmarks  
 All Forums
 Our Skeptic Forums
 Creation/Evolution
 Xing Xu, Big Bird and the Six Day Shuffle
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 11

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2007 :  00:52:36  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Chinese paleontologist who has described so many feathered dinosaurs has come up with another one.
Massive Birdlike Dinosaur Unearthed in China
James Owen
for National Geographic News

June 13, 2007
The remains of a huge beaked dinosaur with the looks of an ostrich but the weight of a rhino have been discovered in China's Gobi desert, fossil hunters have announced.

The previously unknown dinosaur weighed in around 1.5 tons (1.4 metric tons) and stood more than 16 feet (5 meters) tall—an extraordinary size given its birdlike appearance, say the Chinese researchers who found it. (See a photo gallery of the giant dinosaur.)

Gigantoraptor erlianensis, which lived some 70 million years ago, is the largest toothless dinosaur known to date and possibly the biggest feathered animal ever to have lived, according to a team led by Xu Xing from the Institute of Vertebrate Paleontology and Paleoanthropology in Beijing, China.
I find it not so difficult to imagine such an animal. After all, our modern ratites -- cassowarys & emus & so forth -- are rather like it in miniture, although from the artist's conception it looks like a carnivore, the heavy, hooked beak being an indicator.



National Geographic has become a bit cautious since the Archeoraptor soup-sandwich of a few years ago, and that's possibly why I came across the article in an unusual place: Answers in Genesis. I was doing a customary early morning drive-by at the site when I found their scholarly opinion.
AiG has been deluged with email requests seeking our comment on the latest feathered dinosaur claim coming out of China. We were intending to present a preliminary comment in our regular News to Note feature that AiG's web team posts on Saturday, but interest is so high in Gigantoraptor erlianensis (the world's media are all over it) that we wanted to say something now. Here, then, is a preview of tomorrow's News to Note.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

National Geographic News: “Massive Birdlike Dinosaur Unearthed in China”


If you believe the artist's reconstruction, it's yet another brick in the wall of evolution: a giant, proto-bird dinosaur, named Gigantoraptor erlianensis, that was described in this week's issue of Nature.

If you read the article, however, it's hard to miss the noticeable gap between the dinosaur as it exists in evolutionists' minds and the dinosaur as it exists today (what's left of it, that is).


I find the whole thing hilarius. Artist's reconstructions are always to be taken with a grain of salt, whatever your beliefs of lack of them, even though NG uses some excellent ones. With typical dishonesty, AiG spins it as if NG was hiding something, when the article clearly states that no feather impressions were found with the specimen. Kind of amazing, the mendacity, when you think about it.

I'm looking forward to more information from science and codswallop from the usual suspects. This one has the potential to be even more fun than Archeoraptor, when the YECs hit their stride.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!


Edited by - filthy on 06/16/2007 02:50:40

JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2007 :  08:24:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Filthy, the question of feathers was my first thought when I read your NG link. The title of the article and the rendition are deceptive as to what was found. Unless you are to claim an article title and pictures have little bearing on a persons perception on the words they read.




What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
Go to Top of Page

Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2007 :  12:49:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The artist rendition may not be accurate, but how exactly is the title of the article misleading?


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
Go to Top of Page

Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2007 :  12:52:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From the NG article also:
While the dinosaur's remains didn't include any feathers, which rarely fossilize, its close link to more primitive feathered oviraptorosaurs suggest it very likely did have a feathered tail and arms, the team said.



So what was your point Jerome?

Looks like the title and picture are in no way misleading.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
Go to Top of Page

Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2007 :  12:53:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and....

Thats a damn big chicken!


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
Go to Top of Page

Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2007 :  13:03:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
filthy:
although from the artist's conception it looks like a carnivore, the heavy, hooked beak being an indicator.

Isn't a heavy hooked beak found in the parrot family? I can tell you, as an ex parrot tamer, their beaks of formidable and can do a lot of damage even thought they primarily eat fruit and nuts. A macaw can bit through a broom handle with ease…

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
Go to Top of Page

JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2007 :  13:26:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude

The artist rendition may not be accurate, but how exactly is the title of the article misleading?




What is "bird-like"?

The beak---then turtles are bird like?


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
Go to Top of Page

JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2007 :  13:31:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Could not find a picture of a feather fossil from an oviraptorosaurs, could you help with this?


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
Go to Top of Page

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2007 :  13:45:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All that have feathers are not chickens; all that have wings do not fly.

The feathers are yet to be comfirmed, and it certainly couldn't fly even if it had a Pratt & Whitney turbojet mounted in it's cloaca. It's relationship to birds has been deduced by it's skeletal similarity to other theropods known to be bird ancestors as well as it's own bird-like features. Even if many other fossils are found with still no feather impressions, it will change nothing. Hell, perhaps it didn't have feathers -- so what? Naked mole rats have no hair beyond whiskers, but they are still rodents, are they not? (Yeah, yeah I know; yet again with the freakin' mole rats! )

So Jerome, you have read the article and perhaps looked for other papers on it, now do tell me your conclusions.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Go to Top of Page

furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2007 :  13:47:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What is "bird-like"?

The beak---then turtles are bird like?

Are you stupid or something?

Could not find a picture of a feather fossil from an oviraptorosaurs, could you help with this?

Go to google.com and in the little box type "feather oviraptorosaurs" put your cursor over the little box that says search and press the left button on your mouse.
Hope this helps, you bufoon.


If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
Go to Top of Page

JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2007 :  14:18:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by furshur

What is "bird-like"?

The beak---then turtles are bird like?

Are you stupid or something?

Could not find a picture of a feather fossil from an oviraptorosaurs, could you help with this?

Go to google.com and in the little box type "feather oviraptorosaurs" put your cursor over the little box that says search and press the left button on your mouse.
Hope this helps, you bufoon.




Thanks for the help, still could not find a fossil of a oviraptorosuars feather. Many artist renderings and descriptions; no pictures.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
Go to Top of Page

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2007 :  14:37:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

filthy:
although from the artist's conception it looks like a carnivore, the heavy, hooked beak being an indicator.

Isn't a heavy hooked beak found in the parrot family? I can tell you, as an ex parrot tamer, their beaks of formidable and can do a lot of damage even thought they primarily eat fruit and nuts. A macaw can bit through a broom handle with ease…

I too, have a bit of sometimes bloody experience with parrots, and still love the damned things.

A parrot's beak is very different from a raptor's (carnivorus bird such as hawks and vultures, for those not familiar). It is much more hooked, indeed exaggerated, and far more tactile than any other. And their tongues are vastly different. I am not sure, but I think that, pound for pound, parrots have the strongest bite of any bird. It's like getting your finger caught in a sharpened rat trap!

But that leads to an interesting speculation: as the beak wasn't found with the fossil, why not a parrot-style (we're speculating here, so don't nobody get their knickers in a knot)?

This animal was as big as Al Bundy's mother-in-law and not a flyer. It's diet might have included almost anything and conceivably pretty catholic. A parrot-type beak would give it greater versatility in feeding and fighting, and now that I think about it, I'm a little suprised that this sort of snapper doesn't show up in more of our modern, avian species. It's just so useful.

My favorite parrot is the kakapo, and I regret that I can never share my home with one. Same thing with the kea.





"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Go to Top of Page

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2007 :  14:50:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Originally posted by furshur

What is "bird-like"?

The beak---then turtles are bird like?

Are you stupid or something?

Could not find a picture of a feather fossil from an oviraptorosaurs, could you help with this?

Go to google.com and in the little box type "feather oviraptorosaurs" put your cursor over the little box that says search and press the left button on your mouse.
Hope this helps, you bufoon.




Thanks for the help, still could not find a fossil of a oviraptorosuars feather. Many artist renderings and descriptions; no pictures.


Google for: Microraptor gui, that'll do it. Lots of photos of that one, and another described by the esteemed Dr. Xing Xu. As I recall, the Archeoraptor fraud (that wasn't, really, but that's another discussion) also is feathered and it shows in the photos.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Go to Top of Page

JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2007 :  15:06:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My favorite parrot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_Macaw

I have two that share my home and serenade my dogs. Usually at an inopportune time.



What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
Go to Top of Page

HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2007 :  16:13:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy

Naked mole rats have no hair beyond whiskers, but they are still rodents, are they not? (Yeah, yeah I know; yet again with the freakin' mole rats! )
If you love 'em so much, why don't you marry one?

Fil and a mole rat,
Sittin' in a tree,
K-I-S-S-I-N-G!



Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Go to Top of Page

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2007 :  16:41:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

My favorite parrot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_Macaw

I have two that share my home and serenade my dogs. Usually at an inopportune time.



A handsome bird, that one. At a reptile institution where I worked back in the '50s, we had several Macaws, among other parrots, including a beautiful Hyacinth that was so friendly that it had to be kept locked up as a nuisance. I used to take it with me when I worked in the feed room. It was great company during a very messy job. I got into the habit of bringing it a treat each morning. It's favorite was prickly pear blossoms, an item I like myself.

About four years ago, an Amazon at a pet store cut my left thumb slam to the bone, so it ain't all sweetness, light, and cactus flowers.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Go to Top of Page
Page: of 11 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Jump To:

The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact, and we invite active participation by our members to create a skeptical community with a wide variety of viewpoints and expertise.


Home | Skeptic Forums | Skeptic Summary | The Kil Report | Creation/Evolution | Rationally Speaking | Skeptillaneous | About Skepticism | Fan Mail | Claims List | Calendar & Events | Skeptic Links | Book Reviews | Gift Shop | SFN on Facebook | Staff | Contact Us

Skeptic Friends Network
© 2008 Skeptic Friends Network Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.34 seconds.
Powered by @tomic Studio
Snitz Forums 2000