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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 16:41:48 [Permalink]
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Here's how the science of extinct species works, Jerome: Some information is inferred, until better evidence comes along to confirm or counter it. We know that feather impressions are extremely rare, and hardly ever get preserved. So if a fossil of a critter is found without feather impressions, but we know of both likely ancestors and descendants of that critter that do have surviving evidence of feathers, then we assume that the critter likely also had 'em, until better evidence comes along.
Wiki speaks of this.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 06/16/2007 : 17:27:32 [Permalink]
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Halfmooner, you know what they say about assume. It makes an...
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 17:46:11 [Permalink]
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We all live in a world of assumptions, Jerome. Some assumptions are better than others. I assumed, when I rode my electric bike to the local store just now, that gravity would continue to hold me to the road, and that electromagnetism would continue to operate my bike's brushless DC hub motor as well. But I did not assume that yellow pixies would fetch my ciggies for me.
Science, unlike religion and woo-woo, tells people when assumptions and inferences are being made, and changes or rejects them when further evidence is forthcoming.
For instance, I infer and assume that you yet again did not read the provided links, but I stand ready to shit-can this assumption upon evidence that you have learned anything at all.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/16/2007 17:48:31 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 19:35:32 [Permalink]
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I am skeptical of these amazing finds all from China in a short period; especially when the photos presented of the fossils show no signs of feathers.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/16/2007 : 19:42:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by filthy
Naked mole rats have no hair beyond whiskers, but they are still rodents, are they not? (Yeah, yeah I know; yet again with the freakin' mole rats!  )
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If you love 'em so much, why don't you marry one?
Fil and a mole rat,
Sittin' in a tree,
K-I-S-S-I-N-G!
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Well, I probably would but I'm already engaged to a very jealous pangolin.
She doesn't have any hair either, but man lemmee tell ya, what a kisser!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 20:15:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I am skeptical of these amazing finds all from China in a short period; especially when the photos presented of the fossils show no signs of feathers.
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Mongolia and the Gobi Desert have turned out to be fossil gold mines. If you had noted the dates, you would see that these finds are really at least a couple of years old. They were carefully studied and peer reviewed before being publicized. As you did not google M. gui, I have done it for you. Just open the link.
Here's another'n:
If you look, you will find, one way or 'nother. It's easy.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 06:49:11 [Permalink]
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Filthy, those are the photos I found and still do not see feathers. I am not saying that feathers on dinosaurs are not possible. Only that assumptions were made about the first finds and this assumption has been carried to other finds and a list is now created of feathered dinos without feather fossils.
Much in the same way t-rex was most likely a scavenger and not a hunter; but a predator sells better thus hunter he has become.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 07:00:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Filthy, those are the photos I found and still do not see feathers. I am not saying that feathers on dinosaurs are not possible. Only that assumptions were made about the first finds and this assumption has been carried to other finds and a list is now created of feathered dinos without feather fossils. |
Ah, you don't see them, so they must not exist and someone must be assuming something they shouldn't. A brilliantly naive and arrogant position to take, Jerome. The person making incorrect assumptions is you.| Much in the same way t-rex was most likely a scavenger and not a hunter; but a predator sells better thus hunter he has become. |
Except for all the cases where that didn't happen. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 07:23:10 [Permalink]
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Dave, you have the right to take as fact any statement from authority without evidence you wish. I choose to rely on evidence for my facts.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 07:32:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Dave, you have the right to take as fact any statement from authority without evidence you wish. |
You have no evidence that I have done any such thing.| I choose to rely on evidence for my facts. |
You are not in possession of all the evidence, yet you choose to form conclusions anyway. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 07:46:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Filthy, those are the photos I found and still do not see feathers. I am not saying that feathers on dinosaurs are not possible. Only that assumptions were made about the first finds and this assumption has been carried to other finds and a list is now created of feathered dinos without feather fossils.
Much in the same way t-rex was most likely a scavenger and not a hunter; but a predator sells better thus hunter he has become.
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The work T. rex was done by Prof. Jack Horner, only a few years ago. It was mainly based upon skeletal anatomy, and there is still some considerable discussion over it.
This is getting tedious, so I now consider it a tutorial. Let's get it started with another feathered dinosaur: Sinornithosaurus -- do pay attention as there will be a brief quiz at the end of the period.
Here's the quiz: why are there so many artist's conceptions of these animals and so few photos of the actual fossils in popular publications? Think about it and I'll expect your carefully considered answer tomorrow.
For your homework assignment explain in an, oh, say, 1,000 to 1,500 word essay the relationship between the above animal, a denizan of the Lower Cretacious, and Archaeopteryx of the Jurassic.
I'll expect it on my desk Thursday morning.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 06/17/2007 07:48:45 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 08:24:32 [Permalink]
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Filthy, there are no feathers. I did notice that the shaving of rock outside the fossil presents an image of wings. The upper limbs certainly resemble bird limbs; but feathers are not there.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 08:33:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Filthy, there are no feathers. I did notice that the shaving of rock outside the fossil presents an image of wings. The upper limbs certainly resemble bird limbs; but feathers are not there.
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Focus Jerome, focus....
| Here's the quiz: why are there so many artist's conceptions of these animals and so few photos of the actual fossils in popular publications? Think about it and I'll expect your carefully considered answer tomorrow. |
And if you can't see faint feather impressions, your spectical perscription is a lot farther out of date than even mine.
And you need to start research on that essay.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 08:53:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
A handsome bird, that one. At a reptile institution where I worked back in the '50s, we had several Macaws, among other parrots, including a beautiful Hyacinth that was so friendly that it had to be kept locked up as a nuisance. I used to take it with me when I worked in the feed room. It was great company during a very messy job. I got into the habit of bringing it a treat each morning. It's favorite was prickly pear blossoms, an item I like myself.
About four years ago, an Amazon at a pet store cut my left thumb slam to the bone, so it ain't all sweetness, light, and cactus flowers.
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We see lots of those 'round here... quite pretty.
But it's the maitacas that we see a lot, flying around, even in my city, which is far from being small. The article says they're quiet - but put around 15 of them together... |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 09:18:56 [Permalink]
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These Chinese feathered dino fossils remind me of piltdown man. 42 years of evolutionary science built on a fake.
I am willing to bet the feathered dino fossils fetch a pretty penny when sold. During my research I have found many Chinese bird fossils sold as real that are proved fake.
When science builds on false assumptions false conclusions are created.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Xing Xu, Big Bird and the Six Day Shuffle
