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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2007 :  15:00:25  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
During today's chat Jerome stated that Mt. St. Helens produced layers of sediment that are identical to layers claimed to have formed over millions of years. He claimed that scientific studies have proven this and used it as evidence that certain dating techniques used in the study of evolution are "silly". I asked for sources, and due to technical difficulties he invited me to start a thread, so here it be.


In the absence of any sources yet from Jerome, I have briefly done a google search on this topic and found this: http://www.answersincreation.org/rebuttal/cse/cse_saint_helens.htm I have no idea how relevant this is to Jerome's argument because he didn't say anything about believing in the Biblical flood.

Anyway, anybody care to add to this and enlighten us all on how geologic dating is done using layers of sediment?

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com


Edited by - marfknox on 06/17/2007 15:01:20

marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2007 :  15:06:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Found this too: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH581_1.html

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2007 :  18:52:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
http://www.fs.fed.us/gpnf/volcanocams/msh/

This is a reference point.



I watch this for days without sleep waiting for the next eruption.

What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2007 :  19:05:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jerome are you actually going to direct me to an article or articles where you got your info that Mt. St. Helens has layers of sediment which are entirely indistinguishable from strata that are considered to be developed over millions of years, or are you just going to joke around and waste my time?

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2007 :  19:45:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jerome are you actually going to direct me to an article or articles where you got your info that Mt. St. Helens has layers of sediment which are entirely indistinguishable from strata that are considered to be developed over millions of years, or are you just going to joke around and waste my time?

Marfknox, I don't know if I have mentioned it but I am psychic and I can guarantee that he is joking around and will definitely waste your time.


If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2007 :  22:18:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

http://www.fs.fed.us/gpnf/volcanocams/msh/

This is a reference point.



I watch this for days without sleep waiting for the next eruption.
Wonderful link, that St Helens cam. I've watched it a few times myself, during minor eruptions.

After the big eruption of MSH, a secondary eruption had its ash blown out to sea, then blown back to land. Aberdeen, the area in Washington where I later lived for a time, was covered in a thin layer of fine ash, turning all the evergreens gray, coating cars, roads and people. Roof gutters were badly clogged, a serious problem in that rainforest environment.

Jerome, instead of hiding behind a pretense of critical thinking, why don't you just tell us all about the Biblical Flood, and be done with it? That tired lie about the MSH sediments being "identical" to other geological ones was made up by the Creationists. Fortunately, real geologists can tell the difference easily. For instance, volcanic ash is made up of volcanic ash. Not that you'll understand and/or admit that, troll. Sigh.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/17/2007 22:18:37
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2007 :  02:29:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okey-dokey, let's take a look at one of the more asinine, creationist claims:
Claim CH581.1:
Rapid erosion of sediments along the north fork of Toutle River, flowing out of Spirit Lake on Mount St. Helens, carved a canyon like a miniature Grand Canyon, showing that the Grand Canyon could form suddenly.
Rebuttal:
Response:
The sediments on Mount St. Helens were unconsolidated volcanic ash, which is easily eroded. The Grand Canyon was carved into harder materials, including well-consolidated sandstone and limestone, hard metamorphosed sediments (the Vishnu schist), plus a touch of relatively recent basalt.


The walls of the Mount St. Helens canyon slope 45 degrees. The walls of the Grand Canyon are vertical in places.


The canyon was not entirely formed suddenly. The canyon along Toutle River has a river continuously contributing to its formation. Another canyon also cited as evidence of catastrophic erosion is Engineer's Canyon, which was formed via water pumped out of Spirit Lake over several days by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.


The streams flowing down Mount St. Helens flow at a steeper grade than the Colorado River does, allowing greater erosion.


The Grand Canyon (and canyons further up and down the Colorado River) is more than 100,000 times larger than the canyon on Mount St. Helens. The two are not really comparable.
I've also read Steve Austin's (not the Stone Cold one) blurt on it. He writes lots of words, does our Steve.

I just love it when the YECs get all sciencey & stuff. I can't understand why everybody doesn't.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2007 :  08:03:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The thing that I've always marvelled at about the Mt. St. Helens argument is that in order for it to make sense, it would mean that not only would geologists not be able to tell the difference between fresh ash fall and a compacted ash layer, but that geologists would have to not be able to tell the difference between ash, sedimentary rock, basalt (etc.). Of course, since Jerome seems to think that paleontology is littered with fraud and incompetence, why not geology, too?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Chippewa
SFN Regular

USA
1496 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2007 :  09:00:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Chippewa's Homepage Send Chippewa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Please keep in mind that trolls (and gnomes) also love to make posts that generate comment about them and cause continuing conversation about them. Gerome le petit imbécile est sans différence.*

*( J'ai réalisé qu'il était un troll sans cerveau après le moment où il a dénoncé la nation entière de la France. )
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2007 :  09:10:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2007 :  11:10:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, crap, pleco, sorry this is so boring.

Here, look at my new kitten!



Isn't she cute?

That's about as relevant to this discussion (well, embryo of a discussion) as Jerome's link.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2007 :  11:16:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Chippewa
J'ai réalisé qu'il était un troll sans cerveau après le moment où il a dénoncé la nation entière de la France. )
But wouldn't that make virtually the entire AM talk radio industry trolls? Oh, wait...
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2007 :  11:31:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In this country we read in English, buddy! [/American way of thinking]

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Chippewa
SFN Regular

USA
1496 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2007 :  11:46:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Chippewa's Homepage Send Chippewa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Cuneiformist

Originally posted by Chippewa
J'ai réalisé qu'il était un troll sans cerveau après le moment où il a dénoncé la nation entière de la France. )
But wouldn't that make virtually the entire AM talk radio industry trolls? Oh, wait...

Yup. umm…I mean, Oui.

Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

In this country we read in English, buddy! [/American way of thinking]

Yes, that footnote in French was a message for the underground, working behind the scenes toward the day when we can rightfully proclaim this great country: "New France".

Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.

"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.)
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Chippewa
SFN Regular

USA
1496 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2007 :  11:54:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Chippewa's Homepage Send Chippewa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Marfknox is right – we're sidetracking the question. Until a geologist joins in, I advise placing the question: "how is geologic dating done using layers" over at www.madsci.org.

P.S. The meow-meow is cute.

Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.

"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.)
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2007 :  12:11:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nice moggie, Marf. Would you like another one...?

What we must understand is that these scumbags are not lying to us. They are trying to reach the folks who simply don't follow this sort of thing and know no better, and are more willing to accept their intellectual offal. We must not forget that there are a lot more of them than there are of us, and thus, they are easy targets for shotgunning tripe.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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