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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 06/21/2007 : 06:00:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Cune, honor means: a showing of usually merited respect (Websters).
So, one would show respect and act on that respect in relation to ones parents.
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But that's ENLGISH. The Hebrew-- the intended language-- is different! How can you possibly follow a set of commandments based on the actual meaning of the words when you don't even know the actual words, let alone their correct meaning in context?!?
Edit: Let me follow up on this some more. The Hebrew word here is from the root KBD, which can mean "to be heavy" but also by extension, "to be great" and then "to honor" (that is, "to make someone great").
Out of context, we might think that it means "be nice to mom and dad and listen to what they say" or some such-- and it's probably been used a million times in Sunday Schools across America to make little Yahweh-fearing (well, Hell-fearing) children do what mommy says.
But put in the larger context of Mesopotamian and Near Eastern culture, there's a greater nuance to this word in this context. In Mesopotamia-- particularly in certain periods-- you often see examples of adoption. But not the adoption we think of. Rather, adults adopting adults. This might seem strange to us-- who would adopt a grown man?-- but when you look at the contracts, you see what's going on. A typical phrase in such contracts might go:adi PN1 baltat PN2 PN1 ipallah ukabbassi šumma ša palahiš bitum ša PN2
As long as PN1 lives, PN2 will serve and honor her (PN1), (and) if she (PN2) does (proper) service, the house will belong to PN2 |
The point is this: if a person (PN=personal name) "honors" the adoptive parent, then when the adoptive parent does, the adoptive child gets the house. Note the verb ukabbassi. Even though you can't perhaps see it, it's from the same root as the Hebrew KBD I discussed above. (The final possessive sibilant turns the dental /d/ into an /s/.) You don't give your house to this adoptive child because she or he was nice to you. It's really talking about care for the elderly. In this very preindustrial world, there were not mechanisms for taking care of the elderly-- there was no social safety-net. So if you were without children (or if they just didn't care!), you needed a way to make sure that someone would watch after you when you're old and likely can't take care of yourself.
The Biblical commandment is really talking about care for your elderly parents!!
One might argue that being nice to them all the time is some extension of that, and perhaps it is. But the real context is more specific as to what is intended. |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 06/21/2007 08:02:12 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 06:13:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by filthy
Very simple; we are members of a social species and as such have the "code" wired in. All social species have one, be they horses or wolves or baboons or gorillas or parrots. Religious writings have nothing to do with it beyond giving the preachers another talking point.
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Wired in denotes someone to do the wiring.
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Prove it.
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Wired is a transitive verb. As such in this context it is expressing an action preformed by some "noun".
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 06:24:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Wired is a transitive verb. As such in this context it is expressing an action preformed by some "noun".
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You said "someone". Therefore this statement is non-responsive.
For the second time, prove your assertion of truth that:
"Wired in denotes someone to do the wiring." |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 06:26:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Wired is a transitive verb. As such in this context it is expressing an action preformed by some "noun".
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You said "someone". Therefore this statement is non-responsive.
For the second time, prove your assertion of truth that:
"Wired in denotes someone to do the wiring."
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Please explain what noun did the wiring.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 06:30:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by pleco
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by filthy
Very simple; we are members of a social species and as such have the "code" wired in. All social species have one, be they horses or wolves or baboons or gorillas or parrots. Religious writings have nothing to do with it beyond giving the preachers another talking point.
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Wired in denotes someone to do the wiring.
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Prove it.
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Wired is a transitive verb. As such in this context it is expressing an action preformed by some "noun".
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ev·o·lu·tion
NOUN:
1. A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form. See Synonyms at development.
(from http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/evolution)
Excellent. We may be getting somewhere now.
Edit to add: This nicely answers the above post as well.
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"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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| Edited by - leoofno on 06/21/2007 06:32:13 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 06:43:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Please explain what noun did the wiring.
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NO!
You made the assertion. You back it up.
For the third time, prove your assertion of truth that:
"Wired in denotes someone to do the wiring." |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 06:48:00 [Permalink]
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Jerome:
Wired in denotes someone to do the wiring. |
Maybe an example from evolution that we've witnessed in action would help.
Super tuberculosis bacteria are wired to have antibiotic resistance. This wiring occurred because antibiotics were over-used to kill TB, thus increasing the proliferation of antibiotic resistant TB. Nobody did the wiring, it happened through an unconscious natural process abiding by natural laws. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 06:53:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Jerome:
Wired in denotes someone to do the wiring. |
Maybe an example from evolution that we've witnessed in action would help.
Super tuberculosis bacteria are wired to have antibiotic resistance. This wiring occurred because antibiotics were over-used to kill TB, thus increasing the proliferation of antibiotic resistant TB. Nobody did the wiring, it happened through an unconscious natural process abiding by natural laws.
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That is an example of survival of the fittest. Not a change in the genetics of the bacteria.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 07:03:05 [Permalink]
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Yeaa, Leoofno. Now we are left with the complexity and preciseness of the wiring being done in the context of random events.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 07:33:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Yeaa, Leoofno. Now we are left with the complexity and preciseness of the wiring being done in the context of random events.
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I think you mean random changes filtered by natural selection, occuring over countless generations over millions of years. Natural processes. No Godly noun required. Others can expound on this better than I, but I'm not sure its worth the effort since I think you're just messing around. |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 07:49:44 [Permalink]
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Filthy was this what you are driving at.
http://tinyurl.com/yvptb9
It's a rather intereseting summary.
Edited to fix link -- B10 |
| Edited by - Boron10 on 06/22/2007 11:30:54 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 07:52:09 [Permalink]
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http://tinyurl.com/yvptb9
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 09:07:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
1. place nothing you see before you as a God---allow no earthly control over the self
2. do not make a God---see number one
3. do not curse the creator thus the thing created---thus other people
4. rest every seventh day---work six
5. honor your parents---if followed all family will be treated with honor
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This was either a poor excuse for a dodge or your reading comprehension is lossy. Again in what way do the first 5 commandments lead to the "conformity to ideals of right human conduct". These just simply require belief in an unevidenced god which has nothing to do with moral behavior. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 06/21/2007 09:15:20 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 09:08:47 [Permalink]
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Jerome wrote: | That is an example of survival of the fittest. Not a change in the genetics of the bacteria. |
*blinking*
What the hell do you think survival of the fittest means? It means that members of the species who happen to possess certain genetic advantages given the present environmental circumstances will survive, pass on those genes, and therefore those advantageous characteristics (which are caused by genes) will become more common and exaggerated.
What do you not get about the idea that the moral instinct is an evolutionarily beneficial adaptation in humans? Members of a highly intelligent and social species (such as, say, humans) who have a sense of right and wrong behavior which aids in their survival (y'know, like the urge to protect children and other vulnerable people, particular if they are related to you, or doing favors which result in advantageous alliances) are going to produce more offspring and their inherited sense of conscience will be passed on to their descendants and will become more common and exaggerated. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 09:14:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Yeaa, Leoofno. Now we are left with the complexity and preciseness of the wiring being done in the context of random events. |
1) Evolution is not a random process.
2) Random would still be more plausible than the "magic sky daddy" theory.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Atheism and Morals
