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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 07/01/2007 : 17:40:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Starship Trooper is one of my top 10 favourite movies of all categories.
I'm ashamed to say that I haven't read the book yet. But I hereby solemnly swear I shall, before the end of this year.
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The book is entirely different. The movie didn't even have the soldiers in Heinlein's powered body armor suits. I hated the movie, myself, as it was so divorced from the novel. Maybe you, too, will find the book a lot better. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 17:52:29 [Permalink]
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A citizen should be member of the contract established. Those not freely entering the contract are not part of the contract.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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marty
BANNED
63 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 20:57:48 [Permalink]
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Okay, getting back to the topic at hand...Should there be a requirement for citizenship?
Right now, in America, everyone born here will have the right to vote and be counted as a political equal to everyone else. The poor will have the same voting power as the rich, the uneducated will have the same as the highly educated. This poses a problem because those who don't care, know or understand what the government is doing can be, and are often, duped into voting for something or someone for various reasons - a candidate has better hair, or will fund a particular social program that will put more money into my wallet.
However, if we only let certain people who meet a pre-set criteria become citizens and vote, then we will have a society full of people who will take responsibility and contribute (hopefully) to the betterment of all.
Now, on the topic of public floggings, I support them as long as the crime calls for them and there is no denial of due process.
Do I think property owners should be the only ones to vote? No, it creates an aristocratic class based only on ones ability to accumulate money and buy property. This system doesn't address the larger issue that most people don't know, care or understand what their government officials are doing, or how the government works. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 21:35:31 [Permalink]
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Right now, in America, everyone born here will have the right to vote and be counted as a political equal to everyone else. The poor will have the same voting power as the rich, the uneducated will have the same as the highly educated. This poses a problem because those who don't care, know or understand what the government is doing can be, and are often, duped into voting for something or someone for various reasons - a candidate has better hair, or will fund a particular social program that will put more money into my wallet. |
This is a great argument on why we shouldn't make the voting process easier, for example, online voting. However, voting takes at least some effort for registration and actually going to vote, sometimes waiting in lines. Also, if you vote, you have the chance to be selected for jury duty. The voter turnout of this country shows that people who don't care just don't vote, probably even many who do care.
Now, on the topic of public floggings, I support them as long as the crime calls for them and there is no denial of due process. |
I find this to be a rather barbaric method of criminal punishment. And I don't just mean barbaric in that it is brutal. If your idea of criminal punishment is to instill fear in the public to stop them from committing a crime, then yea, it's great! But they will still want to commit that crime. And most who commit crimes don't intend to get caught. If you really think you'll get away with something, what punishment is there that would deter you?
Instead, a society should attempt to stop its people from ever wanting to commit crimes. And one who does commit them anyway, there should be an attempt at rehabilitation. Not a spanking. To think that an adult or even juvenile criminal learns in the same way an infant does is absurd. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 22:48:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marty
Okay, getting back to the topic at hand...Should there be a requirement for citizenship?
Right now, in America, everyone born here will have the right to vote and be counted as a political equal to everyone else. The poor will have the same voting power as the rich, the uneducated will have the same as the highly educated. This poses a problem because those who don't care, know or understand what the government is doing can be, and are often, duped into voting for something or someone for various reasons - a candidate has better hair, or will fund a particular social program that will put more money into my wallet.
However, if we only let certain people who meet a pre-set criteria become citizens and vote, then we will have a society full of people who will take responsibility and contribute (hopefully) to the betterment of all.
Now, on the topic of public floggings, I support them as long as the crime calls for them and there is no denial of due process.
Do I think property owners should be the only ones to vote? No, it creates an aristocratic class based only on ones ability to accumulate money and buy property. This system doesn't address the larger issue that most people don't know, care or understand what their government officials are doing, or how the government works.
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I do not support limiting voting rights in any manner. There have been enough elites in the past who have thought themselves the only ones suitable for rule or for voting. Athenian "democracy" was only democratic for the minority of free male citizens in Athens. Then there was the American South, where African Americans were long denied voting rights, even after they were free from slavery.
Who decides who is this set of "certain people" who get to be full citizens? Tough as it sometimes is, it's the responsibility of the "smart" and "involved" citizens to reach out to those less educated or caring. If they can't do that, demagogues will triumph. Democracy is tough, but it's the best system there is. Limiting the electorate by fiat would diminish democracy.
Why has nobody even mentioned the phrase, "cruel and unusual punishment"? If flogging -- a form or torture -- isn't precisely that, what is?
Public floggings would brutalize our whole society. Any imaginable "positive" effect upon the convict by the torture would, I believe, pale by comparison to the brutalizing effect upon the people who administered and witnessed it.
The Romans had gladiatorial games. Though they may have developed from the Etruscan tradition of having slaves fight as part of funeral rites, the Romans came to use the "games" both as a way of keeping the populace occupied and happy, and as a way of deliberately brutalizing their entire society, to strengthen it militarily.
One Roman wrote:| “... a public entertainment, nothing lax or dissolute to weaken and destroy the manly spirit of his subjects, but one to inspire them to face honourable wounds and look scornfully upon death, by demonstrating a love of glory and a desire for victory even in the persons of criminals and slaves.”(Pliny – Panegyric xxxi.1) |
No, thanks! No torture, no Roman-style brutality for me. Old crippled man that I am, I would fight in the streets before I saw it come to pass.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/01/2007 22:49:12 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 23:11:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marty
However, if we only let certain people who meet a pre-set criteria become citizens and vote, then we will have a society full of people who will take responsibility and contribute (hopefully) to the betterment of all. |
What criteria would you put in place, were you to get a chance to rewrite the Constitution? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 23:24:30 [Permalink]
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Mab said:
Starship Trooper is one of my top 10 favourite movies of all categories.
I'm ashamed to say that I haven't read the book yet. But I hereby solemnly swear I shall, before the end of this year. |
If you liked the movie, you may not like the novel. The only thing they share are names.
Ricky said:
| Instead, a society should attempt to stop its people from ever wanting to commit crimes. And one who does commit them anyway, there should be an attempt at rehabilitation. Not a spanking. To think that an adult or even juvenile criminal learns in the same way an infant does is absurd. |
At this point (as an adult) it is no longer about learning. Any adult who can't tell the difference between right and wrong (or legal and illegal) wouldn't be subject to criminal punishment, just as they are exempt under our current laws.
This is about conditioning. And I 100% guarantee you that most adults can be conditioned by pain.
I favor flogging because it is over and done with, leaving the prison system quite a bit less crowded, and I'm reasonably sure that petty criminals will have a low rate of recidivism after getting their asses whipped.
Of course, I am also on favor of making all US prisons worse than the one run by Sheriff Joe.
IMO all prisons should be run under full military discipline, anyone who declines to abide by the rules gets a solitary confinement cell, all the water they can drink, and 1500calories of food a day. All inmates who are capable of working should be gainfully employed to pay for the cost of their confinement and upkeep, and be required to pay for their own health insurance. All inmates who lack an employable skill should be trained in one, and then employed and required to pay for the training. In Florida (and I don't imagine it is much different in other states) it costs over $60K a year for the prison system to keep one adult inmate.
Of course, I also think we need to end our fake "war on drugs" and remove the hundreds of thousands of non-violent offenders out of the prison system.
Half said:
Why has nobody even mentioned the phrase, "cruel and unusual punishment"? If flogging -- a form or torture -- isn't precisely that, what is?
Public floggings would brutalize our whole society. Any imaginable "positive" effect upon the convict by the torture would, I believe, pale by comparison to the brutalizing effect upon the people who administered and witnessed it.
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Flogging isn't torture, it is a punishment, nor is it cruel. No one who wasn't physically capable of withstanding it should be subjected to it.
It has probably been banned in the US because of the prohibition on "cruel and unusual" punishments, but that definition is a fluid one, and should (again, IMO) be reevaluated.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 23:30:55 [Permalink]
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Oh and... have you watched TV lately Half? Watching a public flogging isn't going to damage anyone, especially if TV hasn't already done it.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 01:47:11 [Permalink]
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Ricky said:
| You don't care the psychological or physiological impacts of such punishments, as long as society benefits. |
First, how is it you are capable of determining what I care about? An interesting power you have there.... What you are doing is called projection, and doesn't really have a place in conversations of this type. You can't (and don't) know what I do or don't care about.
The only psychological impact is the person will recall the flogging and think twice about repeating the actions that led to it. We aren't talking about whipping children, just adults, and only those who are capable of understanding why.
And no one who would be significantly adversely impacted physiologically (as determined by a doctor) should be flogged.
| But I do agree wholeheartedly that prisoners should be made to do work to help pay for the cost of their sentence. And to my knowledge, they currently do. |
Some prisoners are allowed to work, but not all. What I'm talking about is employment for all prisoners, and training them in a skill if they lack an employable skill. So they can find employment after their prison term ends and pay for their confinement. Those who decline to participate can enjoy a small box to live in with the minimum ammount of nutrition needed to sustain them.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 03:05:41 [Permalink]
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Dude wrote:
Flogging isn't torture, it is a punishment, nor is it cruel. No one who wasn't physically capable of withstanding it should be subjected to it.
It has probably been banned in the US because of the prohibition on "cruel and unusual" punishments, but that definition is a fluid one, and should (again, IMO) be reevaluated. |
What utter. dangerous nonsense. (Well, blood is "fluid," I suppose.) Flogging is not torture? Bullshit!
Since the longstanding "cruel and unsual" Constitutional argument is being dismissed with waved hands, how about our international treaty commitments?
Torture is defined by, and prohibited by, the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (signed by the United States on 18 April 1988, and ratified by Congress on 21 October 1994):PART I
Article 1
1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions. |
And here's a thought: How many criminals will simply walk free, when jurors who oppose torture (and I dearly hope there are millions of us!) stand on principle and refuse to convict? Or are you going to throw out the jury system, too, Dude?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/02/2007 03:16:20 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 03:36:14 [Permalink]
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It always worries me when someone opines that most should vote. Why would you what those without knowledge voting, unless you feel that those without knowledge can be manipulated to vote your way?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 09:09:11 [Permalink]
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In my opinion:
Citizens that do not have the knowledge or the incentive to vote should not be prevented from voting. Why? Because it is the system that has failed them, not the other way around.
Putting a criteria for voting will help further establish a class based system, where those who can't vote will never be able to vote, because the ones with the power will not want to share for fear of losing their power.
Wanting to establish a criteria for voting based on knowledge or some other subjective criteria sounds to me like the epitome of selfish anti-democratic elitism. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 07/02/2007 12:23:29 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 10:51:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
We're in the 21st century. Fear mongering should be a thing of the past. Governments should not scare their people into behaving. |
Yet fear mongering, government and media supported, is prevalent in current American society. So how much of a difference is this?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Requirement for Citizenship?
