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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 09/05/2007 : 02:48:23 [Permalink]
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The great flaw of capitalism is that unrestricted free markets are a devastating force in the long term. They allow for the concentration of wealth and the creation of class based societies. The reliance on charity and philanthropy to redistribute wealth is a pipe dream.
Economic justice requires an act of force by the government to regulate and maintain markets. Human beings cannot, as is well evidenced by our history, be trusted to be fair and responsible and to bring safe products to market unless there are civil and criminal consequences for the unsafe.
I part ways with the hardcore libertarians on the topic of economics. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2007 : 06:17:02 [Permalink]
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I'm not in the business of "drumming" skeptics out of associations as Kil says, but I wonder what would happen to Shermer if he started advocating homeopathy. Would everyone be so politically correct about it? Why is this different?
To me, this is more harmful. This just feeds the advocates of eliminating things like the minimum wage, so instead of talking about a living wage, we're still fighting to end slavery. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2007 : 07:37:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
The great flaw of capitalism is that unrestricted free markets are a devastating force in the long term. They allow for the concentration of wealth and the creation of class based societies. The reliance on charity and philanthropy to redistribute wealth is a pipe dream. |
Where is evidence of these assertions. In America today, we have a system of governmental regulation that favors political donors. We do not have an unrestricted market. Wealth should not be redistributed; this is theft by any accounting. Currently, the government takes your wealth and redistributes it to the wealthy; what makes you think more government control will change this?
Economic justice requires an act of force by the government to regulate and maintain markets. Human beings cannot, as is well evidenced by our history, be trusted to be fair and responsible and to bring safe products to market unless there are civil and criminal consequences for the unsafe.
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I have no argument that upon harm the government should step into the market and remedy.
Economic justice is allowing you to keep the proceeds of your labor to do with what you choose. It can not be just to take from you and give to another.
By the way, humans are in government. What makes you think the humans in government are going to act differently?
The circumstance you imply only allows for a greater harm to occur as the power inherent in government is great. |
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2007 : 08:15:37 [Permalink]
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Where is evidence of these assertions. In America today, we have a system of governmental regulation that favors political donors. We do not have an unrestricted market. Wealth should not be redistributed; this is theft by any accounting. Currently, the government takes your wealth and redistributes it to the wealthy; what makes you think more government control will change this?
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It is not an unrestricted market and by definition, cannot be an unrestricted market. The market exists because of government, not in spite of it. Patents, copyrights, corporations, licenses; Shermer acts as though these things are dropped on earth from the invisible hand of god, parts of nature. (yes, I understand the attempt at metaphor, but they are not using it the way that Smith meant, and they've turned it into superstiton) These are human creations, created by government, for the benefit of the wealthy, to the detriment of the rest. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2007 : 08:47:01 [Permalink]
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Gorgo:
[quote]Originally posted by Gorgo
I'm not in the business of "drumming" skeptics out of associations as Kil says, but I wonder what would happen to Shermer if he started advocating homeopathy. Would everyone be so politically correct about it? Why is this different?
To me, this is more harmful. This just feeds the advocates of eliminating things like the minimum wage, so instead of talking about a living wage, we're still fighting to end slavery.
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Many skeptics see libertarianism as a default politics. At TAM5 there was a talk by the editor of Reason Magazine” which promotes libertarianism. Both Penn and Teller are, among other things, raging libertarians. And then there was Shermer's talk.
There are those who would like to see Libertarian politics linked to the skeptical movement. I disagree. I think that once we are linked to any particular politics, our credibility would plummet. We are supposed to be about science, not politics, even though with the promotion of science, getting involved in politics for the sake of science is unavoidable. Being associated with one particular politic would just detract from what we are trying to accomplish. And, it would be a target that would surly be used by critics of skepticism.
Objectivism and freethought are promoted by libertarians. So to some skeptics it seems an obvious fit. There happens to be a lot of skeptics who are also libertarians. I am not one of them.
I was a bit offended by the libertarian push at TAM. And I wasn't alone in that. But oh well.
As for Shermer pushing homeopathics, the analogy is not a good one because the bottom line, science wise, for libertarians is that science rules from an objectivist standpoint. There is no reason a Skeptic cannot be a libertarian. There is plenty of reason to question a skeptic pushing homeopathics. It's apples and oranges.
I think Shermer's attempt to make libertarianism the default politic for skeptics is wrong. But being wrong in this case does not mean you are not a good skeptic. It isn't a matter of PC. The two modes of thought really don't conflict.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2007 : 08:51:56 [Permalink]
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What is the dividing line? Would a holocaust denier be treated so politely? How about a Maoist or a Stalinist?
Science may rule from an objectivist viewpoint, but Objectivism strayed off into woo-woo land.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 09/05/2007 08:56:20 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2007 : 08:59:19 [Permalink]
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Why isn't "politics" part of science? Isn't economics supposed to be a science? Isn't sociology a science? Hell, Marx founded a science based on the study of class conflicts, didn't he?
Just asking. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2007 : 09:02:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
What is the dividing line? Would a holocaust denier be treated so politely? How about a Maoist or a Stalinist?
Science may rule from an objectivist viewpoint, but Objectivism strayed off into woo-woo land.
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Would love to answer but I must go to work.
Darn... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2007 : 09:06:06 [Permalink]
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Would love to answer but I must go to work.
Darn...
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I'd love to read this, but I am at work.
Darn... |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2007 : 10:02:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
I think Shermer's attempt to make libertarianism the default politic for skeptics is wrong. But being wrong in this case does not mean you are not a good skeptic. It isn't a matter of PC. The two modes of thought really don't conflict. |
I think a good argument could be made that since ideal Libertarianism requires ideal humans - something there will never be many of - then the two are in conflict since skepticism depends upon realism and not idealism.
Good grief:Shermer, who considers Objectivism "perfectly sound ... the best thing going"...
- Wikipedia In a perfect world it might be perfectly sound, but Shermer should know that the world is far from perfect. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2007 : 10:25:55 [Permalink]
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I think a good argument could be made that since ideal Libertarianism requires ideal humans - something there will never be many of - then the two are in conflict since skepticism depends upon realism and not idealism.
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The goal of 'perfect' capitalism is slavery.
Again, see the crown jewel of capitalism, Haiti. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 09/05/2007 10:33:03 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2007 : 11:50:57 [Permalink]
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JDG (originally I had attributed this to Gorgo, my apologies) said:
| what makes you think more government control will change this? |
If you want to participate in a discussion, you are going to have to learn how to read or something, and stop inventing shit and pretending others have said it.
No where, ever, have I suggested that the US has an unrestricted free market. Ours is tightly regulated, probably a bit on the overregulated side.
My comments were in reference to what it appeared you were talking about, the libertarian position of economics.
Seriously Jerome, you shouldn't wonder why you are on the recieving end of so much abuse here on these boards when you do things like this regularly. Get a fucking clue, then get back to me.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 09/05/2007 12:27:11 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2007 : 12:01:34 [Permalink]
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JDG (again, originally misattributed to Gorgo, again, my apologies) said:
Economic justice is allowing you to keep the proceeds of your labor to do with what you choose. It can not be just to take from you and give to another.
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Wrong again.
Economic justice, if you would bother to do some basic internet research before you put your ignorance on display, is about the redistribution of wealth.
Go read some Rawls, and John Locke. Then do a basic google search with the words "economic justice".
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 09/05/2007 12:28:22 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2007 : 12:03:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Gorgo said:
| what makes you think more government control will change this? |
If you want to participate in a discussion, you are going to have to learn how to read or something, and stop inventing shit and pretending others have said it.
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Ditto here. I didn't say what you're quoting in the last two posts. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2007 : 12:08:11 [Permalink]
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Seriously Gorgo, you shouldn't wonder why you are on the recieving end of so much abuse here on these boards when you do things like this regularly. Get a fucking clue, then get back to me.
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Actually, I'm not on the receiving end of any abuse. Your need to be insulting is your problem, not mine.
I just point it out, because I don't think you need to do that to yourself. That's the way you have fun, so go for it. I think it does little to improve the boards, but that's not my business either. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Skepticism and politics
