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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 07/22/2007 : 07:54:55
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| As a result of delays in receiving tests and surgeries, patients have suffered and even died in some cases, justices Beverley McLachlin, Jack Major, Michel Bastarache and Marie Deschamps found for the majority. |
Looks like Canada is realizing that citizens dying while waiting in line is not good health care.
George Zeliotis waited a year for hip replacement surgery.
Illegal for doctors to charge for their services.
| Dr. Jacques Chaoulli, wanted the court to overturn a Quebec provision preventing doctors who don't operate within the medicare plan from charging for services in public hospitals. |
I guess Quebecs high court disagrees with Sickos opinion of Canadian health care.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 08:19:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
It isn't just Michael Moore's opinion. Many have concluded that Canada does better than the U.S. That, of course, doesn't mean Canada is perfect, hence the court ruling.
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Two points:
1. The opinion of the high court based on evidence carries more weight than the opinion of an editorial writer with a political agenda.
2. The article shows that Japans health care system provides for the longest life and research shows it is mostly funded privately.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 09:09:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Two points:
1. The opinion of the high court based on evidence carries more weight than the opinion of an editorial writer with a political agenda. |
Way to invent an argument, Jerome. You've presented no evidence at all that Quebec's High Court "disagrees with Sicko's opinion of Canadian health care," unless that opinion is that Canada's system couldn't possibly be any better (which would be ludicrous). Nor have you presented any evidence that suggest that Quebec's High Court's opinion is not that Canadian health care is among the best in the world.| 2. The article shows that Japans health care system provides for the longest life and research shows it is mostly funded privately. |
Do you think longevity should be the sole metric by which healthcare success is measured? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 10:33:52 [Permalink]
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These programs are underfunded because right-wingers lobby to cut funds. Then when funds are cut, "socialism" is blamed for problems.
The province of Quebec took a different route. Pressured by workers' demands that culminated in the 1972 General Strike, Quebec incorporated medical services into a broad social benefits system, paid for and provided by the provincial government. The Quebec working class is rarely credited for producing the most comprehensive medical system in North America.
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Quebec's model health-care system has been damaged severely by funding cuts. In 2005, Canada's Supreme Court ruled that lack of timely access to treatment in Quebec was serious enough that the province could no longer prohibit private funding for medically necessary services. Similar legal challenges are expected in the other provinces.
Unless the public system is resuscitated with a major transfusion of funds, it's only a matter of time before private hospitals begin servicing those who can pay to go to the front of the line. Ironically, while Americans long for a Canadian-style medical system, that system is disintegrating under the pressure of market forces.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/22/2007 10:34:54 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 16:11:30 [Permalink]
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People dying because the lines are too long is a severe problem with any health care system. More money will not buy more doctors. There is a doctor shortage because of the system which in turn is the cause of the long deadly lines.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 16:20:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
People dying because the lines are too long is a severe problem with any health care system. More money will not buy more doctors. There is a doctor shortage because of the system which in turn is the cause of the long deadly lines.
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I see, and the "free market," however, will buy more doctors, and will stop the long deadly lines and make it just like the U.S., where people don't bother getting in line, because they know no one will pay for it. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 16:22:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
People dying because the lines are too long is a severe problem with any health care system. More money will not buy more doctors. There is a doctor shortage because of the system which in turn is the cause of the long deadly lines.
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I see, and the "free market," however, will buy more doctors, and will stop the long deadly lines and make it just like the U.S., where people don't bother getting in line, because they know no one will pay for it.
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Apparently so, as Canadian doctors are coming to America.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 16:42:02 [Permalink]
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Sure. Not so many, but some .
High doctor's income in the U.S. is largely a result of government interference. Guess you're saying that government interference is a good thing. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 17:10:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Sure. Not so many, but some .
High doctor's income in the U.S. is largely a result of government interference. Guess you're saying that government interference is a good thing.
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A net loss of .5% per year is a lot of doctors.
This would deplete the pool of doctors dramatically in a short period of time.
Do not just read the headline of the information, read the real data.
The data shows a pattern of reduction of about .5% per year over 25 years.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 17:14:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Gorgo
Sure. Not so many, but some .
High doctor's income in the U.S. is largely a result of government interference. Guess you're saying that government interference is a good thing.
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A net loss of .5% per year is a lot of doctors.
This would deplete the pool of doctors dramatically in a short period of time.
Do not just read the headline of the information, read the real data.
The data shows a pattern of reduction of about .5% per year over 25 years.
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You only responded to 50 percent of what I said, and that is missing a lot. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 17:21:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Sure. Not so many, but some .
High doctor's income in the U.S. is largely a result of government interference. Guess you're saying that government interference is a good thing.
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I do not understand how governmental interference is the catalyst for high doctor compensation.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 17:24:32 [Permalink]
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I do not understand how governmental interference is the catalyst for high doctor compensation.
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Well, you might have a chance if you'd read things that other people post. As it is, all you seem to be doing is regurgitating propaganda paid for by the wealthy as a way to steal from the poor. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 17:47:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I do not understand how governmental interference is the catalyst for high doctor compensation.
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Well, you might have a chance if you'd read things that other people post. As it is, all you seem to be doing is regurgitating propaganda paid for by the wealthy as a way to steal from the poor.
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I can see how governmental interference is the catalyst for insurance companies high profit, and increased taxes; not doctor compensation.
I would prefer a system in which doctors competed for high compensation.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 21:08:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
| As a result of delays in receiving tests and surgeries, patients have suffered and even died in some cases, justices Beverley McLachlin, Jack Major, Michel Bastarache and Marie Deschamps found for the majority. |
Looks like Canada is realizing that citizens dying while waiting in line is not good health care. |
Excessive waiting lists are certainly a flaw in the Canadian health care system.
Illegal for doctors to charge for their services.
| Dr. Jacques Chaoulli, wanted the court to overturn a Quebec provision preventing doctors who don't operate within the medicare plan from charging for services in public hospitals. |
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This is a hot button issue in Canada. The fear is that allowing doctors to charge for services outside of medicare will lead to two tier system where only the rich are guaranteed adequate health care.
| I guess Quebecs high court disagrees with Sickos opinion of Canadian health care. |
They may disagree with some aspects of it. Personally, I think Moore paints a rosier picture of Canada's public healthcare system then is actually the case. That said, the US system is far worse.
In general I don't trust free market capitalism to equitably deliver public goods like police, military, justice, education or health care. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 21:33:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by dv82matt
In general I don't trust free market capitalism to equitably deliver public goods like police, military, justice, education or health care.
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I'd also add electricity to that list, otherwise I agree 100%
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Top Court Strikes Down Quebec Private Health-Care
