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 Skeptical of Ron Paul's Internet Popularity
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2007 :  20:41:36  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In one of the other threads, Dude wrote:
As far as I can tell, there is only one actual respectable rebublican left in the US, and his name is Ron Paul.
Huh? Ron Paul is pro-life, anti gay marriage, lamented not being in Congress at the time so he could have voted FOR the Defense of Marriage Act.

http://www.covenantnews.com/ronpaul070721.htm
The right of an innocent, unborn child to life is at the heart of the American ideal of liberty. My professional and legislative record demonstrates my strong commitment to this pro-life principle.


As a socially conservative Libertarian would totally scoff at Dude's suggestion (made in the same post) to: "Make private for-profit health insurance illegal, and implement a national coverage plan that includes every US citizen." Ron Paul even wants to get rid of social security! What exactly do Dude and so many other young, educated people on the Internet like about him?

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

marty
BANNED

63 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2007 :  20:45:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send marty a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You do not understand what libertarian is.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26004 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2007 :  21:02:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, Bill Maher is kissing the man's butt.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2007 :  23:44:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
marty wrote:
You do not understand what libertarian is.
Well, gee, marty, thanks for that clear and descriptive response. How could I possibly have been so mistaken about whatever it is that you think I'm mistaken about. Silly me!

But seriously, about a third of my freethought club membership in college were libertarians, including a guy who was running for a local political office and used to write regular columns. I seriously dated a guy who was part of the libertarian student club and participated in formal debates. Like members of any political party, actual libertarians follow trends but are still individuals with a wide range of stances on specific policies. I most certainly do know what a libertarian is, and I'd love to know what in my post compelled you to say that I don't.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2007 :  03:58:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like the guy, because he seems to try to be honest. I voted for him many years ago when he ran for pres as Libertarian. I think some of the things he says make sense, but the core ideas of Libertarians are ludicrous. They treat the "free market" as though it's some gift from God, rather than something that's rarely free, and a very human construction as it exists, and a complete utopian fantasy where it only exists in their minds.

And I did not know his views on abortion and marriage.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Edited by - Gorgo on 07/27/2007 03:59:03
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2007 :  05:35:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by marfknox
What exactly do Dude and so many other young, educated people on the Internet like about him?
This is a little unfair, isn't it, Marf? The implication here is that an educated person can't possibly be pro-life, for instance. Perhaps a less loaded question will generate better discussion?
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2007 :  05:47:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cune wrote:
This is a little unfair, isn't it, Marf? The implication here is that an educated person can't possibly be pro-life, for instance. Perhaps a less loaded question will generate better discussion?
Oh, crap, I see how it could be taken that way - but I didn't mean that. First of all, education does to some extent correlate with socially liberal stances, and when I say that I'm simply stating a fact, not making any claims about what causes what. What I meant was more along the lines of how young people and/or people who frequent the Internet tend to be more socially liberal (this tendency tied to their youth and education), regardless of whether they are more economically liberal or conservative. I could understand such people liking a Libertarian Republican, but Ron Paul is also socially conservative, so I just don't understand how he is so different from other Republicans. What is so special about it? Gorgo says he seems to try to be honest. What? I mean, crap, a good actor can seem honest! What are the hard reasons that people like Dude who are not Republicans like him as a politician?

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 07/27/2007 05:48:35
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2007 :  06:11:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good point, but most politicians try to seem honest, but they are obviously liars. I could never see why anyone thought that Dubya or Reagan were reasonable people. Jimmy Carter was a better actor, but you still knew he was a poltician. Ron Paul has something different about him, and maybe it is all facade, I can't say for certain.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2007 :  06:13:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by marfknox

Cune wrote:
This is a little unfair, isn't it, Marf? The implication here is that an educated person can't possibly be pro-life, for instance. Perhaps a less loaded question will generate better discussion?
Oh, crap, I see how it could be taken that way - but I didn't mean that. First of all, education does to some extent correlate with socially liberal stances, and when I say that I'm simply stating a fact, not making any claims about what causes what. What I meant was more along the lines of how young people and/or people who frequent the Internet tend to be more socially liberal (this tendency tied to their youth and education), regardless of whether they are more economically liberal or conservative. I could understand such people liking a Libertarian Republican, but Ron Paul is also socially conservative, so I just don't understand how he is so different from other Republicans. What is so special about it? Gorgo says he seems to try to be honest. What? I mean, crap, a good actor can seem honest! What are the hard reasons that people like Dude who are not Republicans like him as a politician?
Got it. Thanks for clearing that up, Marf!
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marty
BANNED

63 Posts

Posted - 07/28/2007 :  15:20:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send marty a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by marfknox

marty wrote:
You do not understand what libertarian is.
Well, gee, marty, thanks for that clear and descriptive response. How could I possibly have been so mistaken about whatever it is that you think I'm mistaken about. Silly me!

But seriously, about a third of my freethought club membership in college were libertarians, including a guy who was running for a local political office and used to write regular columns. I seriously dated a guy who was part of the libertarian student club and participated in formal debates. Like members of any political party, actual libertarians follow trends but are still individuals with a wide range of stances on specific policies. I most certainly do know what a libertarian is, and I'd love to know what in my post compelled you to say that I don't.


It is ashame that after so much exposure to libertarians that you do not understand the core philosophy. Individual beliefs of a libertarian do not much matter because they do not believe in using the power of the government to mandate their beliefs on others. Young and educated people like Ron Paul because they understand and agree with the philosophy of not using government to mandate ones beliefs on others.
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 07/28/2007 :  15:31:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
marty wrote:
It is ashame that after so much exposure to libertarians that you do not understand the core philosophy. Individual beliefs of a libertarian do not much matter because they do not believe in using the power of the government to mandate their beliefs on others. Young and educated people like Ron Paul because they understand and agree with the philosophy of not using government to mandate ones beliefs on others.
I suspect you didn't read my post closely enough. I started this thread because in a post from another thread, Dude suggested that the USA "Make private for-profit health insurance illegal, and implement a national coverage plan that includes every US citizen", and in the same post he praised Ron Paul. But as a Libertarian who wants less government control, obviously Ron Paul would scoff at Dude's suggested solution for improving the condition of health care in the USA. I then mentioned that Ron Paul also wants to get rid of social security. Where am I mis-characterizing the core of Libertarianism?

Also, I started a thread about Ron Paul the individual politician, not Libertarianism itself. Another thing I mentioned was that he wished he could have voted for the Defense of Marriage act - a federal law that would prevent the feds from recognizing gay marriage, while they still recognize and give privileges to straight ones. Now if Paul is a true Libertarian, I imagine he'd support stripping away all the federal benefit of marriage altogether and just leave it up to the states perhaps, but the point in the context of this thread is that the guy is a bigot against gays and lesbians, and in his politics he would take action to prevent them from having equal rights.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 07/28/2007 15:32:28
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 07/28/2007 :  16:26:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Marf asked:
What are the hard reasons that people like Dude who are not Republicans like him as a politician?


First, I never said I agree with him 100% on everything.

Second, I do not let social wedge issues decide my vote. Ultimately they are non-issues (with few exceptions, like stem cells). Want an abortion? Drive to Canada. Gay and want to be married? Drive to Massachusetts. etc. As long as no federal laws get by (no constitutional ammendment really has a chance, that shit is all posturing for votes) I have no problems.

Third, Ron Paul is the only candidate, from either party, who proposes a non-interventionist foreign policy, as in military intervention overseas only to defend our allies in response to mutual defense treaties or actual declared wars.

You can't find a democrat who wants to remove all our troops from Iraq. Ron Paul has said that he would begin an immediate and complete withdrawl from Iraq and focus our efforts on finding binladen and al-qaeda on the afgan/pakistan border.

He is anti-NAFTA.

He is against the government spying on its citizens.

He favors smaller government (no way to tell if he is just paying lipservice to this one or not, but hey)

Whats not to like?

I disagree with his position on abortion, where he claims that life begins at conception (what complete nonsense). But he thinks abortion should be a state's rights issue, not a federal judicial issue as it is now. I tend to agree with that in principle.

He is a little woo on healthcare (suprising for an MD), with his support of "alternative medicine".

He isn't a fan of the UN. I'm not sure why, since the US has veto power there, and nothing they do in the security council can be approved without our vote.

Most of his immigration positions are solid, except for wanting to end birthright citizenship. He offers no viable alternative for determining citizenship, so loses points there.


Like I said, he is the only one of the batch of republicans who I can take seriously as a candidate. He'll never win the nomination, but if he did he would likely present a challenge to the Hillary/Obama ticket.

I'd seriously consider voting for him if he were to win the republican nomination.

Of course, the guy I want to run for president (Gore) isn't going to.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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