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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2007 :  19:24:42  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The term troll is highly subjective. Some readers may characterize a post as trolling, while others may regard the same post as a legitimate contribution to the discussion, even if controversial. The term is often used to discredit an opposing position, or its proponent, by argument fallacy ad hominem.

Often, calling someone a troll makes assumptions about a writer's motives. Regardless of the circumstances, controversial posts may attract a particularly strong response from those unfamiliar with the robust dialogue found in some online, rather than physical, communities.[citation needed]


Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore him or her, because responding encourages a true troll to continue disruptive posts hence the often-seen warning "Please do not feed the troll".[citation needed]

The word troll is often and easily (mis)used as an ad hominem attack against someone whose viewpoints and input cannot otherwise be silenced (i.e., via banning). Its successful use and misuse reveals much about how starkly different the world of technicians is compared to normal social and political discourse.

The term troll should be used with attention since it is a very easy way of undermining an opposing point of view. Sometimes, overly using the word "troll" may constitute trolling in itself.


I highlighted the important points.

Internet troll



What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25970 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2007 :  19:29:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Show me where I've accused you of trolling in order to undermine your argument Jerome, and all your bolding will have a point.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2007 :  19:42:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe every other post Jerome makes here has been troll-like, I don't know, and maybe that's why he deserved that remark.

However, in this instance, what he said could have been a sincere remark from someone with a point of view that I find ridiculous, but that many people hold. I don't understand why that's "trollery," whatever that is, but maybe it's just me.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1880 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2007 :  19:45:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From your link:
While the victim is trying to put forward solid and convincing facts to prove his position, the troll's only goal is to infuriate its prey. The troll takes (what it knows to be) a badly flawed, wholly illogical argument, and then vigorously defends it while mocking and insulting its prey. The troll looks like a complete fool, but this is all part of the plan. The victim becomes noticeably angry by trying to repeatedly explain the flaws of the troll's argument. Provoking this anger was the troll's one and only goal from the very beginning.
Perhaps it is not your intended goal, but can you see how your argument style gives others this impression. How many times have members pointed out the flaws in your arguments only to have you continue making the same flawed arguemnt.

Or is it as Kil suggested you are impervious to well reasoned arguments that you view as contrary to your GodDidIt conclusion.

edited typos

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
Edited by - moakley on 07/23/2007 19:46:42
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25970 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2007 :  19:49:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't understand, Gorgo, how telling Kil that his motives for a question were "asinine" when Kil obviously had no such motives could be a sincere remark.

Jerome obviously inverted Kil's meaning in order to illicit an angry response. And he got one. And now he's whining about it. It's not like this hasn't happened before. It's not like it hasn't happened before with Jerome. It's the pattern of behavior I'm interested in, and that one comment fits right in with the rest.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2007 :  20:17:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

I don't understand, Gorgo, how telling Kil that his motives for a question were "asinine" when Kil obviously had no such motives could be a sincere remark.

Jerome obviously inverted Kil's meaning in order to illicit an angry response. And he got one. And now he's whining about it. It's not like this hasn't happened before. It's not like it hasn't happened before with Jerome. It's the pattern of behavior I'm interested in, and that one comment fits right in with the rest.


The idea was foolish. That is what the word means. I am sorry for your misunderstanding.

I do not whine; although I have had many opportunities. It does not upset me when others disagree or see things in a different light.

I revel in others thoughts. I have no malice, yet you portray malice in your interpretations of my writings. Step back, think, and also revel in the human experience of thought exchange!


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25970 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2007 :  21:03:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I see that you still refuse to acknowledge that you ascribed to Kil motives that he clearly did not have, and instead you wish to define the word "asinine" for me.

That's enough for me.

Your privileges here are now suspended, Jerome. If you wish to have them reinstated, you can email me at davew@skepticfriends.org no earlier than August 24, 2007. In the meantime, you will not attempt to contact SFN staff, post to the SFN forums, or use the SFN chat room.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2007 :  22:01:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.
Your privileges here are now suspended, Jerome. If you wish to have them reinstated, you can email me at davew@skepticfriends.org no earlier than August 24, 2007. In the meantime, you will not attempt to contact SFN staff, post to the SFN forums, or use the SFN chat room.
Simple, clear, unambiguous instructions? Jerome will never be able to follow them.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1880 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  04:26:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And I suspect that Jerome still doesn't get it. Symptomatic of the GodDidIt conclusion.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  04:28:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I didn't follow most of what he said here, Dave, so you would know better. I'm sure he went around telling people to get fucked, called them fucking morons and assholes, told them to "shut up", and posted arrogant remarks like *sigh*, and piled on when someone was reprimanded or banned.

No wonder Kil is traumatized by it all.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  04:31:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Or maybe you did read the article linked in the OP, and are just taking an opportunity to hijack the thread a little bit to do some more of your whining about how they're all criminals. Wahhh.


This wasn't about eliciting an angry response, was it?

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25970 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  05:15:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Gorgo

I didn't follow most of what he said here, Dave, so you would know better. I'm sure he went around telling people to get fucked, called them fucking morons and assholes, told them to "shut up", and posted arrogant remarks like *sigh*, and piled on when someone was reprimanded or banned.

No wonder Kil is traumatized by it all.
Ahhhhh, sarcasm.

We don't have nearly enough of that around here.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  06:15:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ahhhhh, sarcasm.

We don't have nearly enough of that around here.


Ahhhhh, sarcasm.

We don't have nearly enough of that around here.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  07:31:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suppose Jerome could use a rest...

A pity though, I was working up a little something up for him and by 8/24, with my attention span, I'll have long since lost interest.

I love a good ad hom attack, if it's done with a little style & class. Just calling names isn't really very satisfying whichever end of it you happen to be on. It's far better to write carefully and impune your victim's intelligence, hygene, sexual habits, physiognomy and ancestory in a few carefully considered paragraphs.

For example, if you want to call someone a troll:

Listen up, you with the cognitive abilities of an aborted, pelican! Just tell me when the hell you are finally going to address the topic and quit trying to straw-man us to death. Or are you even able to do so, what with the unfortunate case of congenital syphilis that you caught from that leprous-looking goat in Port au Prince interfering with your less-than-higher thought process'?

It's a little hard to believe that you came by your ignorance naturally, from a long line of dullards, but you've almost got me convinced.

Y'know, if you washed your ears once in a while, you might learn about something other than the echos in your mishappened skull, and if you'd learned to read beyond 4th grade level, you might be able to hold a conversation with someone other than the village idiot, whose job, I'm sure, you're in line for when he retires.

Now, are you going to start arguing this topic like a civilized person, or are you gong to continue acting like a retarded baboon at a Republican circlejerk?


And so forth. That's not my best effort, but it's much better and a lot more satisfying than, "Yer a fuckin' troll!"

Is it not so?




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  08:03:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And so forth. That's not my best effort, but it's much better and a lot more satisfying than, "Yer a fuckin' troll!"

Is it not so?




Needles is better than machetes.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13455 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  08:05:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The thing is Gorgo, Jerome was probably more warned then any person we have ever banned. I PM'd him several times to suggest that he try to figure out what it was about his posting style that rubs people the wrong way. Dave gave him pre warning warnings. This has been going on for months now.

I have never really gotten a handle on Jerome. It often appears that he posts to be provocative for the sake of being provocative. And I don't mean in a thoughtful way. Many of us took a long time to write posts correcting misconceptions he seemed to have, just to see them waved away without comment only to pursue the same line of questioning which was answered. Where do you draw the line on that kind of rudeness? Were out here spinning our wheels and that gets old.

If you look at how trolling is defined, you will see that many of Jerome's posts fit the profile. Hell, most of his OP's begin with questions that are nothing more then bait since he had already made up his mind about the only acceptable answer. That is trolling.

I frown on the use of name-calling. But the occasional occurrence of someone just loosing it happens. If that happens repeatedly the offender will earn a warning too. Just ask Dude about that. I'm not willing to turn on the bad word filter (oh yes, we have one) because I would rather treat our forum members like adults.

Are we fair? The best I can say is that we try to be.

It is my hope that Jerome follows Dave's instructions and makes his way back to SFN. If he does, he will be the first after being suspended/banned.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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