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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  08:15:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Are we fair? The best I can say is that we try to be.


I appreciate the thoughtful answer. As I said, I didn't read most of what he wrote.

As long as you're trying, I have no real complaints. And you're right, Dude is very bright, and thoughtful, and tries to bring something to the forums. There are many here that add a lot, including you and Dave, and sometimes we all have attitudes that are hard to figure out sometimes. I could blame it on the medium, but it's just a fact of life in any medium.

This is actually a pretty cool place.


I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Edited by - Gorgo on 07/24/2007 08:17:22
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend

275 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  08:59:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send perrodetokio a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good riddance!

I had stopped visiting Skeptickfriends because it was tiresome and boring that everytime a good discussion would be posted, Jerome would kidnap it and then pages upon pages of boring bs would ensue (mainly people trying to make forome aware of his recurring errors in posting).

Now I think IŽll be back to my daily visits here.

Cheers!

"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott

"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott

"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  13:39:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I will miss you Jerome! If only the fact that most people here could not resist replying to you even though they knew it would not matter. It must have been the body of work because the one comment does not warrant banning in my opinion. Anyhoo, by Jerome.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9665 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  13:48:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

I will miss you Jerome! If only the fact that most people here could not resist replying to you even though they knew it would not matter. It must have been the body of work because the one comment does not warrant banning in my opinion. Anyhoo, by Jerome.
Rest assured it wasn't "the one comment". He's been diligently working on it for quite some time.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  14:56:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perrodetokio wrote:
Good riddance!

I had stopped visiting Skeptickfriends because it was tiresome and boring that everytime a good discussion would be posted, Jerome would kidnap it and then pages upon pages of boring bs would ensue (mainly people trying to make forome aware of his recurring errors in posting).

Now I think IŽll be back to my daily visits here.

Cheers!
I must second this. First I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, and even spent several hours debating issues with him on chat as well as in the forums. But then I got tired of running in circles and also of being patronized. I stopped reading SFN almost entirely for 2 weeks because of Jerome, and when I came back, I told myself to ignore him, but ended up exploding on him anyway 'cause he just pisses me off so much. I'm surprised I haven't gotten a warning yet, 'cause even I think I deserve one for the shit I said to him in the "Sicko" thread.

The messed up thing is that I still don't think there is any maliciousness in Jerome. I really do just think he has almost zero online social skills, and that all his trolling is the result of genuine, well, idiocy.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25971 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  15:18:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by marfknox

I'm surprised I haven't gotten a warning yet, 'cause even I think I deserve one for the shit I said to him in the "Sicko" thread.
Here, marf. If you think you deserve worse, then consider yourself warned.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25971 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  19:04:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Are we fair? The best I can say is that we try to be.
"Fair," of course, being subjective.

I've been thinking about this a lot. And it should be obvious that what might seem fair to the Jeromes of the world may not be the same as what seems fair to the staff here, or to you, Gorgo, or to anyone else.

I can say that we try to be reasonable. I can say that we avoid being random.

But on the other hand, I can honestly admit that there are some people here that I like having here more than others. I'll probably continue to cut them more slack than those whose presence makes me cringe. I'm not sure that that's unfair, because we don't bill the SFN as being impartial, and I'll even say that me having to treat everyone exactly the same isn't fair to me.

It's been my experience that some people (nobody here that I'm aware of) only think things are "fair" when unpopular ideas are given just as much deferrence as popular ones. This idea of fairness strikes me as being a denial that some opinions really are wrong. I recently read elsewhere a post by a guy who people seem to generally regard as abrasive, saying, basically, that being able to express the right amount of contempt for comtemptible things is a sign of maturity. I'm no longer sure that I disagree. This certainly isn't intended to be the Sweetness-and-light Friends Network...

...but it's also not the Swearing Fiends Network.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular

Australia
800 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  20:06:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit JohnOAS's Homepage Send JohnOAS a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I sympathise in part with what marf and perrodetokio have said.

The gnomish threads started by Jerome are all well and good, but it became somewhat droll to have almost every thread hijacked by him at some point.

The difficulty in telling when/if he was genuinely joking was a large part of the frustration for me. He claimed to have misunderstood and would try to improve (here, here and here-ish), but we've yet to see the evidence.

That said, I would like to see him come back, if he can react appropriately, and modify his behaviour even slightly. Jerome, if you're reading this, this means that even if you're right, you're going to have to learn to communicate better if you want to convince anyone of the validity your position.

Based on Kil's comment though, his return, statistically at least, seems unlikely. Someone's bound to be the first though, right?

Edited to add: I think the moderation here is the best I've seen. Sure it aint perfect, but when you're dealing with people, what is?

John's just this guy, you know.
Edited by - JohnOAS on 07/24/2007 20:08:39
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  20:10:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
With regards to swearing, I don't think that it in of itself is especially offensive. What is important is the context. Is the swearing directed at someone or merely used as an adjective signifying high emotions? What swear word is it. Who is saying it and to who? What transpired beforehand?

For my part, it is not swearing (from others, not myself) that has most angered, hurt, or offended me, although it can act as lemon juice in the cut. Personally, I'm much more offended by specific personal attacks or assumptions. And I'm much more angered or frustrated by trolling styles of argument such as Jerome's.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2007 :  20:11:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have to say I think things are better here without the hyperactive troll. I believe it was Jerome's intention to disrupt the entire site's functioning, by making nearly every thread into a discussion of his willful ignorance. If he wasn't posting his own inane nonsense, he was interrupting and diverting intelligent discussion by others. Apparently his made him feel the big man.

He knew how to moderate this behavior. He moderated it for a bit when he was first warned, but soon came back more trollish than ever.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2007 :  02:59:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jerome often reminded of verlch, whose pearls of wisdom we enjoyed a great deal a while back. It's the utter irrationality that is the attraction of most if not all of these people.

Like verlch, Jerome often brought out the worst in us, but he also brought out some of the best. Many of the threads he butchered were highly informative, albeit through no design of his own. If you read back through them and discount the lunacy, they become very interesting.

I too, would like to see him return, and indeed, verlch as well.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2007 :  03:55:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
...but it's also not the Swearing Fiends Network.


My very subjective, very unscientific view of the place is that a few people get a kick out of being very hostile to some less than well-informed people, or what they view as less than well-informed people (and sometimes they're the ones that are uninformed). That's all I'm saying. Those kids think that it's smart to call these people liars and assholes and trolls, but it's just calling names for the sake of calling names. If you can't engage in reasonable discussion with someone, end your part of the discussion. What is served by making the site look like a hostile place? Saying "Fuck you asshole" or even calling someone a liar and a trollboy is quite different than not wanting to make the place all sweetness and light.

Read the site like someone who's never been here and knows nothing about any of this.

Some people will be offended just because we discuss subjects they don't like to have people talk about, sure, it happens to everyone here. But the tone of the place again, in my very unscientific view, seems hostile.

I don't think Martha would like me calling her "liberal" theist friends and family "fucking morons" for their views, and if I did, she would expect me to apologize. I don't ever see anyone apologize to the person they've insulted here. They may apologize to Dave or Kil, but they don't apologize to the person they've insulted. Are we all really all that wise here?

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2007 :  04:18:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Gorgo

...but it's also not the Swearing Fiends Network.


My very subjective, very unscientific view of the place is that a few people get a kick out of being very hostile to some less than well-informed people, or what they view as less than well-informed people (and sometimes they're the ones that are uninformed). That's all I'm saying. Those kids think that it's smart to call these people liars and assholes and trolls, but it's just calling names for the sake of calling names. If you can't engage in reasonable discussion with someone, end your part of the discussion. What is served by making the site look like a hostile place? Saying "Fuck you asshole" or even calling someone a liar and a trollboy is quite different than not wanting to make the place all sweetness and light.

Read the site like someone who's never been here and knows nothing about any of this.

Some people will be offended just because we discuss subjects they don't like to have people talk about, sure, it happens to everyone here. But the tone of the place again, in my very unscientific view, seems hostile.

I don't think Martha would like me calling her "liberal" theist friends and family "fucking morons" for their views, and if I did, she would expect me to apologize. I don't ever see anyone apologize to the person they've insulted here. They may apologize to Dave or Kil, but they don't apologize to the person they've insulted. Are we all really all that wise here?
Actually, I have, to verlch among others. When you're wrong, you're wrong and there's no shame in admitting it, and trying to put it right.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2007 :  04:37:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, I have, to verlch among others. When you're wrong, you're wrong and there's no shame in admitting it, and trying to put it right.



And I apologize to you for making a blanket statement. I didn't mean never and always. I meant, I just don't recall seeing anyone doing it. I don't read a lot of posts, so I'm sure I missed a lot.

And what I think Dave seems to be saying is that being hostile to people is a good thing, so long as you are righteously angry about some righteous cause. Yes, be hostile to dangerous and stupid ideas, but also expect the other side to see your ideas as dangerous and hostile and be just as arrogant and hostile as you seem to be to them.

Yes, you may say, it's good to be arrogant and hostile to people like Jerome, but I wonder if that's what you'll attract. People who are impervious to your hostility and think it's funny to fuck with you.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Edited by - Gorgo on 07/25/2007 04:41:35
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2007 :  04:59:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that all of us try not to be arrogant & hostile but tempers get raw, some quicker than others. These days, if I feel like reaching through the monitor screen and throttle some bone-headded blatherer, I drop off the forum and into something else until I become coherent again. Too bad it doesn't always work, but it's been a long time since really I cut loose on someone (except Bush & the Republicans).

Comparatively speaking, Jerome is a really mild case. Remember HYBRID? And Bigbrain?




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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