|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 11:37:11 [Permalink]
|
| Anyway, if that's all just stupidity, then that's what it is. I'm going to try to learn to do better, if I can. I've said it before, and I'll probably say it again. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
 |
|
|
H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 07/25/2007 : 12:02:08 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Gorgo
I honestly fail to see a glorification of it.
|
I probably got it wrong. I just saw people writing about famous literary examples and thought there was some attempt to say calling someone a moron in a discussion forum could somehow be compared to that. |
Ah. Well, if you meant my post, it was more about the pitfalls of enforced prudery. For example, you'll never see more civilized, polite, or non-offensive discussions than those conducted at draconian christian forums. Of course, nothing worthwhile ever gets said there either.
|
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/25/2007 12:02:51 |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 12:11:39 [Permalink]
|
Of course, nothing worthwhile ever gets said there either.
|
Good point, but there's also nothing to say that makes any sense there, either. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 12:41:56 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Gorgo...Originally posted by H. Humbert...Originally posted by Gorgo...
Calling someone a moron is saying that you don't have a case. |
Unless you actually also present a case. |
But not good enough to stand on its own? |
Calling someone a moron (or numbskull or pea brain, etc.), when in fact they're acting like one, or calling them an asshole (or liar or troll, etc.), when they are being one, isn't necessarily used to support or augment one's argument. At least here on SFN, comments like that most often seem to be statements of fact aside from any case being presented. This type of usage is much like if one says, "I like the way you stated that," or, "You're a pretty lousy communicator," and the like.
Calling someone a jerk or a moron generally implies a request that the person stop being a jerk or a moron, or maybe implies a resignation to the fact that the person is going to continue being that way. So calling someone else a moron, in that sense, is not saying you don't have a case. If, on the other hand, one calls the other party a moron for the purpose of supporting their own argument or diminishing that of the other person, then it becomes an ad hominem. And yes, that often seems to occur when the name caller doesn't have a case.
Again, from my observation at least, most of the time we use terms like asshole, moron, liar, jerk, fuckwad, etc. here on these forums, it seems to be because the other party is indeed acting in a way which falls within such a description. And other than the fact that certain words and phrases will offend some people, it's just a critical evaluation, same as calling someone smart, observant, diplomatic, pleasant, articulate, etc.
|
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 18:56:45 [Permalink]
|
| Rude Pundit to be an insightful commentator who doesn't mince words. While he uses "rude" language, the key part is that he backs up his main points with links and facts. That, to me, is far more important than how he chooses to phrase things. |
It doesn't matter to me that he swears or talks about dicks, but this particular essay just isn't funny, and I really couldn't read it because I was so busy sifting through attempts at being funny that I never did figure out what he was talking about. That's nothing against him, I don't think Dave Barry or Garrison Keilor are funny, either, and there are a lot of people who think I'm wrong about that.
|
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/25/2007 19:03:17 |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 19:02:53 [Permalink]
|
| Calling someone a moron (or numbskull or pea brain, etc.), when in fact they're acting like one, or calling them an asshole (or liar or troll, etc.), |
That's really a meaningless statement. When you insult someone like that, just for the sake of tearing someone else down to try to build yourself up, you tell me about yourself, and not the person you're insulting.
When I see someone acting that way, I assume that person is either having a bad day, or just doesn't think very much of themselves. It teaches me nothing. It's not at all constructive in any way. I appreciate intelligent sarcasm, but talk like that is just a futile attempt to bludgeon reality into being something that it isn't. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/25/2007 19:03:44 |
|
|
|
GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 21:06:42 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Gorgo...
That's really a meaningless statement. When you insult someone like that, just for the sake of tearing someone else down to try to build yourself up, you tell me about yourself, and not the person you're insulting. |
No, it's not meaningless. If you've made a good point, it should be acceptable for someone to tell you you've made a good point. If you're being an asshole, it should be just as acceptable for someone to tell you you're being an asshole, especially if your being an asshole is detracting from the possibility of a productive conversation. That was often the case with Jerome. And he was doing it on purpose, which makes him a troll.
The point I was making is it's often just a statement of fact, expressed for purposes other than simply trying to build oneself up by tearing someone else down. Should we get all warm and fuzzy when we want to remind someone that they're lying or acting like an idiot or being rude or condescending? Of course not. Got a better word for asshole than asshole?
| When I see someone acting that way, I assume that person is either having a bad day, or just doesn't think very much of themselves. |
Then it's likely you're often making an incorrect assumption.
| It teaches me nothing. It's not at all constructive in any way. |
Too bad, because sometimes it could be.
| I appreciate intelligent sarcasm, but talk like that is just a futile attempt to bludgeon reality into being something that it isn't. |
You're making an incorrect assumption. Reminds me of when beskeptigal continued to insist that people meant certain things with their comments, even after the intent was clearly specified by those who had made the comments. If one doesn't understand someone else's meaning or intent, the right thing to do is ask them rather than to assume.
|
| Edited by - GeeMack on 07/25/2007 21:08:15 |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2007 : 00:39:06 [Permalink]
|
Reminds me of when beskeptigal continued to insist that people meant certain things with their comments, even after the intent was clearly specified by those who had made the comments. If one doesn't understand someone else's meaning or intent, the right thing to do is ask them rather than to assume.
|
I think that's an extremely good point, except it seems as though you're not giving the same benefit of the doubt to the person you're insulting. For instance, you are assuming that it is them that's "being an asshole," or a "poor communicator" rather than you misunderstanding something. It seems really arrogant.
By insulting, just for the sake of insulting, you've said that you have all the answers in the world, and they are flawed as human beings. Not just imperfect, as humans are, and as you are, and as I am, but inferior.
BUT, since you've made such an extremely good point, I will try to remember what you've told me in the future. See, I can see you talking to your friends or your brothers maybe, in person, and they would understand what you mean when you say, "man, you're a fucking moron." They wouldn't take it as an insult. They might think twice about what they're doing and change.
But I wonder if it also might help you to remember, that I'm not your brother. I don't know you in person. People who don't know you may walk in and see you just acting like well, an immature asshole, just here to be insulting. A fucking moron. A dickhead. A fuckwad. [really funny remark about your probably nonexistent inappropriate relationship with your mother deleted here]
I don't hate things or people, but I hate smiles, or I'd put one here.
Thanks for the clarification. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/26/2007 00:44:22 |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2007 : 03:16:30 [Permalink]
|
I guess I'd clarify one more thing that seems obvious to me, but maybe not to others.
I made the statement that you are insulting just to insult and to build yourself up. There is no such thing as a moron, an asshole, a jerk, a fuckwad. They don't exist. Moron is an abandonded medical term. No one is literally any of those things. If Martha thought Jerome had the brain of a three-year old, she wouldn't be talking to him. She's not frustrated by his behavior. She's frustrated because of her views about her inability to smash reality into something that it isn't. Frustration, in this case, is the superstitious belief that you can change reality with your emotions. It's like trying to use a hammer to put on shoes that are too small. If he's an inferior, he's just not going to get it, and all the name-calling in the world isn't going to change it. If he's someone playing games, he's just going to laugh at your frustration. If he's not, he's just either going to be insulted, or not understand what you're saying. You're not insulting him for him, you're insulting him to show how clever you are.
There is no way that your methods are constructive with anyone other than those people that like to piss in the same bowl at the same time that you do.
Now that you've explained to me what you think you're doing, I will be more likely to appreciate where you're coming from. It shows me that you are trying to be a person of good will, but I think you're still misguided on this issue, and it doesn't help me with anyone else that acts the same way who hasn't attempted to explain themselves, and I still contend that others who won't have the advantage of reading what you just wrote will not think highly of the pack dog attack mentality that I see going on here sometimes.
And again, I'm not saying that I've never used tactics that put other people down. I am always trying to change that about myself.
I also really mean it when I say I appreciate your explanation and will view your remarks differently in the future. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2007 : 12:27:21 [Permalink]
|
Gorgo wrote: | Fucking moron and moron mean the same thing. It's not something that tells me anything about Jerome, but rather about you. It is a lie. It is an attempt to push something on him which is not his. Your anger. |
The word “moron” does have a definition in a dictionary of insults, and when used as an insult it is meant in a particular way. It wasn't randomly chosen out of a lineup of insults. Your bad attempts at mind reading are tiresome, and your accusation that my insult is a “lie” is false.
| but to have enough self-respect not to need to be rude. |
Rudeness is subjective. By saying this, you are accusing people on this forum of not having self respect. You are making assumptions about peoples' character and state of mind. Thus, I find your accusations and criticism of arrogance to be hypocritical.
| When about twelve of you gang up on me in an attempt to show me how stupid I am, I guarantee that the first thing I think of is to try to find ways to show how stupid you are, rather than trying to articulate my side of the story. |
How people argue varies depending on the dynamics of the group. If I join a forum of conservatives, I must expect numerous people to be arguing against my liberal points. If I can't stand that heat, I shouldn't walk into that kind of kitchen in the first place. This is an Internet forum that people engage with for recreation, not a therapy session. It isn't as if anyone is forced to be here.
| I don't see the mob mentality that goes on here sometimes as any prettier than anything Jerome did. |
It isn't a mob mentality when a group of people happen to all disagree with one person, and then all participate in arguing with that person. As you said, most people are nice all of the time and all people are nice most of the time, so what is this “mob” or “gang” you are referring to?
| I don't mean anything against anyone for any of this, if you think you're doing fine, you're probably doing fine. I'm working on appreciating the people that are here where they are, and me where I am. I'm not all the way there, but I'm getting there. |
What a condescending paragraph. “Where they are” and “not all the way there” is clearly implying some morally or ethically preferred destination. You are making a judgment call. Whatever, if you want to make it on yourself, but when you judge others and then make a public statement like this, how can you not realize that you are being insulting?
If you had phrased this differently, such as this: I am trying to appreciate people here for who they are, even if I don't always agree with them, and when we have different ideas about appropriate conduct. Not that I'm always satisfied with my own conduct, but I am getting closer to living my own philosophy. -- then this would have meant the same thing as what you said, but it would have none of the condescension or tone of judgment of others. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
| Edited by - marfknox on 07/26/2007 12:30:09 |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2007 : 12:48:08 [Permalink]
|
I'm removing what I wrote here. Not because I meant any harm. It was a joke. Marf has said she thinks highly of people like I think it's Hunter Thompson whose ribald humor she evidently appreciates. Someone else mentioned the Rude Pundit. Not to knock anyone else that appreciates it. Just a matter of taste.
I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression. While I have no problem with swearing and talking about sex, I don't want to have anything taken the wrong way, and she is not alone in taking things the wrong way here. I clearly said I was kidding, and I only meant it in that way.
I apologize if what I've written is inappropriate, again, I meant no harm.
Having said that, I think Marf, among others has taken what I've written the wrong way. Again, I said clearly that this thread is not about chastising anyone. And again, if you're happy about the way you're doing whatever it is you're doing, go for it. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/26/2007 17:08:44 |
|
|
|
H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2007 : 14:03:37 [Permalink]
|
Look, Gorgo, you seem super sensitive about these things, more so than the average adult. I know you may think your position is the more mature or enlightened, but honestly you just come across as having a skin as thin as an eggshell. Rather than feeling personally chastised, I am embarrassed for you. And no, going over the top with the insults to Marf makes no point except to prove that you have no idea when, where, or in what proportion to use them. It's as if you weren't properly socialized as a child.
Look, we get it, you hate it when people are called bad names because you don't like being called bad names yourself. Great. But trying to shame people into cessation by offering faulty and insulting guesses about their motives is the wrong way to go about it. You've made your point, now maybe it's best you sit back and let other people have their say.
|
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2007 : 14:14:17 [Permalink]
|
Gorgo, marf, do I need to seperate you two?
Now marf, I know you really didn't need to call Gorgo a pregnant goldfish.
And Gorgo, I know you didn't need to call marf a chicken faced female dog.
Can we all play a little nicer?
I promise not to call Gorgo an automiton follower of a famous linguist anymore.
It is true that Jerome tended to pull the less than desirable responses from us in frustration, but do we really need to dwell on it?
OK, go to your corners and wait for the bell to sound.
Thanks |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 07/26/2007 14:14:49 |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2007 : 15:20:08 [Permalink]
|
now maybe it's best you sit back and let other people have their say.
|
I said I was kidding. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2007 : 15:21:11 [Permalink]
|
OK, go to your corners and wait for the bell to sound.
|
I was kidding, I said I was kidding. Evidently you don't like Marf's brand of poetry.  |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Troll?
