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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 07/25/2007 : 05:08:47 [Permalink]
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Comparatively speaking, Jerome is a really mild case. Remember HYBRID? And Bigbrain?
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Well, from what little I saw of him, I thought that, but I really don't know.
And it sounds like with my ranting I don't think I'm part of the problem. I'm going to try to take my own advice to heart, and am also going to say that I don't want to blow it out of proportion, either. There are a lot of constructive things going on here, and all of the people are nice most of the time, and most of the people are nice all of the time. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 06:22:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
And what I think Dave seems to be saying is that being hostile to people is a good thing, so long as you are righteously angry about some righteous cause. |
Well, I said I wasn't sure. But I am pretty sure that one can show contempt for something without necessarily being hostile. And certainly without being angry.| Yes, be hostile to dangerous and stupid ideas, but also expect the other side to see your ideas as dangerous and hostile and be just as arrogant and hostile as you seem to be to them. |
Sure. Anyone who expects meekness in return for hostility is bound to be disappointed.| Yes, you may say, it's good to be arrogant and hostile to people like Jerome, but I wonder if that's what you'll attract. People who are impervious to your hostility and think it's funny to fuck with you. |
And, of course, there are people out there who will take "do you have evidence for that assertion?" as a vicious personal attack. In fact, no matter what a person has to say, there is someone out there who'll take offense to it. Treating everyone with kid gloves in order to prevent confrontations with extremists is neither fair nor possible. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 06:32:17 [Permalink]
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Treating everyone with kid gloves in order to prevent confrontations with extremists is neither fair nor possible.
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Absolutely, but there seems to be much squirming and bellowing when it is returned as though it did not also come from us to begin with. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 06:54:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Absolutely, but there seems to be much squirming and bellowing when it is returned as though it did not also come from us to begin with. |
Perhaps. I'll keep a closer eye on that. But as I said, anyone who dishes out aggression and expects their target to simply roll over is being unrealistic.
Just as an example, I don't think that anyone who got hostile towards Jerome really expected him to respond "oh, I see where you're coming from" and become a model forum citizen. Any such transition, had he been interested, would have taken a lot of time and effort. But I think Jerome got precisely what he was looking for, anyway. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 07:11:54 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote: | …I don't think Martha would like me calling her "liberal" theist friends and family "fucking morons" for their views, and if I did, she would expect me to apologize. I don't ever see anyone apologize to the person they've insulted here. They may apologize to Dave or Kil, but they don't apologize to the person they've insulted. Are we all really all that wise here? |
And Dave wrote:
Just as an example, I don't think that anyone who got hostile towards Jerome really expected him to respond "oh, I see where you're coming from" and become a model forum citizen. Any such transition, had he been interested, would have taken a lot of time and effort. But I think Jerome got precisely what he was looking for, anyway. |
Maybe it is because this line of discussion seems to come specifically from Dave's comment about swearing, but I am unmoved. I will not apologize to Jerome. I do not think it was wrong to call him that, and I will not apologize out of some abstract sense of niceness. I agree with the idea that Jerome did get what he was looking for. What was wrong was calling him that on this forum, and the peoples I wronged were the people reading it who might have been annoyed or made uncomfortable.
What's more, if someone called me a “fucking moron” in a discussion, and said it really because they thought I was acting in a stupid manner (moron) and it was upsetting them (thus the modifier “fucking”), I would not expect an apology. I expect apologies when someone has wronged me. Indeed, if someone called me a liar and I knew I wasn't lying, that would be such a case. But “moron” is a pretty subjective term. It would sting if someone called me that, and certainly plenty of people have (I used to have a newspaper column), but if I think they are wrong in that case, it doesn't bother. In fact, with such subjective insults as “moron” or “asshole”, it only really angers me if I think the person is right. Same goes for if someone insulted one of my friends.
What purpose do these insults serve? In the proper context, honesty, of course! And cathartic release, and who are you to illegitimate these fine reasons? I was just listening to a podcast of Salman Rushdie at the New Humanism conference in Harvard, and an audience member asked him about the “New Atheists” such as Hitchens and Harris. First Rushdie admitted that he didn't agree with much of Hitchen's opinions, and that while reading Harris, he can't help but feel that the writing badly needs some subtly. But THEN he went on to say that it was wonderful that these guys could say what they wanted, and that there was wonderful about having at least someone out there who just says such things so bluntly, and that there is too much self-censorship, and that it can be a dangerous thing.
I am a huge fan of Hunter S. Thompson, and no writer that I know heaped on more swearing and insults when he made social criticism. It is to such an extreme that it is cathartic, but it is so interwoven with absolutely hard reasoning that it rises far above the level of trash, and becomes something truly unique and great.
The main reason Jerome brought out that impulse in me was that it seemed an suitable response to arguments that repeatedly ignore what has already been said, that make grandiose but vague claims, that are blatantly hypocritical, and defy both logic and common sense. For over a month I made serious efforts at using reason alone with him. But it was like shooting rubber bands at a bric |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 07:29:45 [Permalink]
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I don't particularly care about swearing, one way or the other.
Fucking moron and moron mean the same thing. It's not something that tells me anything about Jerome, but rather about you. It is a lie. It is an attempt to push something on him which is not his. Your anger.
I don't know anything about Hunter Thompson. I remember trying to read what he wrote a long time ago, and finding nothing of interest, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with him. Just a matter of taste, I suppose. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 07:48:00 [Permalink]
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I should also say that if you call me a fucking moron, I may take offense, but that is irrelevant. My problem with it is not that someone may take offense, taking offense is kind of irrational to begin with.
So, what is my problem, and why don't I just ignore it and move on? That's the better question, and I will try to think more on that for my own edification. However, I think the main thrust is how I think it appears to others. It's too easy to see skeptics and atheists as people with problems. If they see this as a den of evil vipers ready to attack, then how does that help? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 08:38:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Maybe it is because this line of discussion seems to come specifically from Dave's comment about swearing... |
Nah, it was about hostility, contempt, arrogance and insults.
Really, whether a person uses four-letter words or not makes little difference to how hostile, contemptuous, arrogant and insulting a post can be. I'd like to see less swearing because a lot of it seems gratuitous, and because at some point in the future we may wish to try some outreach to kids. And the SFN staff has generally been trying to lead by example on this issue for ten months or so. The swearing doesn't actually bother me, I just would rather not see it as it does bother others.
No, part of what I was hoping to get from my earlier post was a discussion about whether responding to contemptible ideas with an appropriate amount of contempt really is mature (or fair), or whether any good will come from it (other than catharsis). And that's not to say that I intend for the SFN to become all butterflies and gumdrops where people feel obligated to blow sunshine up the woo-woos' butts. I just want to hear peoples' ideas on those sorts of issues.
(Now that I think about it, though, it might be interesting to have a running contest to see who can tell a woo that they're wrong, but disguised with so much flowers-and-lollipops language that the woo actually enjoys it.  ) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 09:47:48 [Permalink]
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Right but with flowers it quickly becomes condescending and just as insulting. Really this problem could be sloved with more emoticons!
There's no viable method of getting through to someone who is not willing to try, on either side of an arguement. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 10:04:38 [Permalink]
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| Perhaps resolute moron instead of f...ing moron. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 10:22:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
No, part of what I was hoping to get from my earlier post was a discussion about whether responding to contemptible ideas with an appropriate amount of contempt really is mature (or fair), or whether any good will come from it (other than catharsis). |
Well, I find the Rude Pundit to be an insightful commentator who doesn't mince words. While he uses "rude" language, the key part is that he backs up his main points with links and facts. That, to me, is far more important than how he chooses to phrase things.
Also, in the area of politics in particular, I felt that much greed, corruption, and unethical behavior was being papered-over by flowery or benign language. I think the best-known example of this is the military use of the phrase "collateral damage" to mean civilian causalities, but conservatives adopted (perverted, even) this strategy and now use a slew of misleading phrases meant to underplay hard truths or misrepresent political positions (Climate Change, Blue Sky initiative, Family Values, "teach the controversy.") Plain or even vulgar language can be a powerful antidote to such verbal manipulation.
"Woos" often adopt misleading terms that become nonsensical when used out of context, including "energy," "quantum," and "vibration." Creationists are probably the undisputed kings of redefining words to suit them, with "religion," "faith," and even "science" being some of their favorites.
I find this sort of deception infuriatingly dishonest, since the words people use to think about a subject quite literally affects how they feel about it. Words are powerful. People entranced by the wrong words can benefit from being jarred out of their normal patterns of platitudinous speech and forced to actually communicate their ideas clearly. Orwell's invented language of Newspeak is often remembered for introducing such concepts as "double-think" into the popular lexicon, but it's also important to remember that the goal of Newspeak was to remove all conscious thought from the process of talking. Speakers could literally drone on for hours without being consciously aware of, or remembering later, a single thing they'd said. "The underlying theory of Newspeak is that if something can't be said, then it can't be thought." In practice, this happens all the time. Dishonestly conflating the terms "science" and "religion" has left a large portion of the population unable to conceive of a difference between the two.
Thus, there is a real battle over language going on, one of the larger fronts in the ongoing "Culture Wars." And while I agree that rudeness for rudeness' sake or artless speech is often counterproductive, I caution against diluting the power of words for the sake of mere civility. The enemies of truth will have no such qualms, and we risk unnecessarily handicapping ourselves by couching harsh actualities in timid or passive qualifiers.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/25/2007 10:24:51 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 10:41:15 [Permalink]
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I don't think there is anything wrong with "mere civility" either. We all know situations where people are offended by the strangest things, so I think the point is not to avoid offending, but to have enough self-respect not to need to be rude. At least we can say that we attempted to have some self-respect and some civility when others point out our faults, real or unreal.
When about twelve of you gang up on me in an attempt to show me how stupid I am, I guarantee that the first thing I think of is to try to find ways to show how stupid you are, rather than trying to articulate my side of the story. Hopefully, part of the time I recognize that and realize I don't need to build myself up by putting you down. Sometimes I forget. Sometimes I fail even when you don't gang up on me. Sometimes I gang up on others, I know.
That's all it is. Calling someone a moron is saying that you don't have a case. It's giving up on yourself, on them, and your side of the discussion. I'm saying "you" here, knowing that I'm talking about me, too. Hopefully, when I realize that's what I'm doing, I try to make some effort to say acknowledge my error in thinking.
I'm not raking anyone over the coals, here. I understand frustration and anger. I just don't understand the glorification of it.
I don't see the mob mentality that goes on here sometimes as any prettier than anything Jerome did. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 11:10:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Calling someone a moron is saying that you don't have a case. |
Unless you actually also present a case.
In my opinion, it is those who would use a single epitaph as a pretense for dismissing another person's entire argument who are the ones revealing themselves to be without a well-founded point of view. Sometimes people are morons, and sometimes calling someone a moron is a truth that needs to be stated. But when a person refuses to examines the stated reasons for concluding someone is a moron and instead focuses only on the conclusion, I consider that to be substituting "mere civility" in place of reasoned thought. Calling someone a moron isn't always saying that you don't have a case, but refusing to move forward after being called one usually is.
| I just don't understand the glorification of it. |
I honestly fail to see a glorification of it. I see at worst perhaps a tolerance of it, and I think that's because there are usually more important things to focus on. However, I would point out that the existence of this thread is a pretty clear indication that that tolerance is waning.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/25/2007 11:10:53 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 11:25:18 [Permalink]
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I honestly fail to see a glorification of it.
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I probably got it wrong. I just saw people writing about famous literary examples and thought there was some attempt to say calling someone a moron in a discussion forum could somehow be compared to that.
I don't mean anything against anyone for any of this, if you think you're doing fine, you're probably doing fine. I'm working on appreciating the people that are here where they are, and me where I am. I'm not all the way there, but I'm getting there. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/25/2007 11:26:43 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 11:33:03 [Permalink]
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| Unless you actually also present a case. |
But not good enough to stand on its own?
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Troll?
