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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2007 :  05:47:13  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The High Point Church of Arlington, Texas offered to host a funeral for Navy vet, Cecil Sinclair. Sinclair, who died of an infection caused by heart surgery, served in Operation Desert Storm, helping to rescue downed pilots.

But a little problem cropped up. The folks who run the mega-church discovered what was to them a shocking (though hardly hidden) "secret": Sinclair had been gay. So they retracted their invitation.

It just seemed like the Christian thing to do.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.

Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/10/2007 05:57:56

perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend

275 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2007 :  07:02:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send perrodetokio a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, thatīs the thing that I canīt understad about many hardcore Christians. What about that bit about love that the supposed Jesus supposed to preach about? And what about tthe bit from the OT "Thou shall not kill"? I mean, when I was a kid and used to go to church, my first communion and all that crap, the preachers whould make of those two things the main points about christianity.

What the fuck!?

perrodetokio

"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott

"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott

"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2007 :  07:52:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Especially since he's dead! I mean, one refrain you hear from those types of Christians is "love the sinner; hate the sin"-- something that never quite made too much sense, but whatever. Point is, now that he's no longer sinning (seeing as he's dead), why can't the do this for him?
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend

USA
220 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2007 :  10:03:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Rubicon95 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Churches typically have bylaws that are based on scripture. Those laws govern the use of the church building.

Now, he wasn't a member of church. The church building was essentially being rented. The family was going to have their own officiate.

This all lines up to a poor decision on the church leadership. Didn't they even interview the family? Either the family hid the guy's sexuality in the interview or the leadership didn't bother to ask about his relationship to Christ or his faith? Again bad decision by the leadership.

I wonder if they allowed funerals of different sects? or religions in the church? Example:
A family of a departed Unitarian want's to use the church facility for the memorial service. Would they have allowed it?




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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2007 :  10:34:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Rubicon95
Either the family hid the guy's sexuality in the interview or the leadership didn't bother to ask about his relationship to Christ or his faith? Again bad decision by the leadership.
I'm assuming the man was a professed Christian and considered himself to have a strong relationship with Christ, or I doubt the man's family would have wanted to hold church services. If the church leaders are going to start making moral judgments on whether or not he sinned according to their doctrines, then they should also deny funeral requests for any Christians who've had an abortion, been divorced, had an affair, stolen, lied, gotten a tattoo, dishonored their parents, or failed to honor the Sabbath. What do you thinks the odds are of that happening? And why would homosexuality be only unforgivable offense on that list? It's not as if Jesus ever emphasized it.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/10/2007 13:41:00
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend

275 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2007 :  12:19:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send perrodetokio a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Originally posted by Rubicon95
Either the family hid the guy's sexuality in the interview or the leadership didn't bother to ask about his relationship to Christ or his faith? Again bad decision by the leadership.
I'm assuming the man was a professed Christian and considered himself to have a strong relationship with Christ, or I doubt the man's family would have wanted to hold church services. If the church leaders are going to start making moral judgments on whether or not he sinned according to their doctrines, then they should also deny funeral requests for any Christian who've had an abortion, been divorced, had an affair, stolen, lied, gotten a tattoo, dishonored their parents, or failed to honor the Sabbath. What do you thinks the odds are of that happening? And would homosexuality be only unforgivable offense on that list? It's not as if Jesus ever emphasized it.




My thoughtīs exactly. What about someone who killed another human being? I mean, do the scriptures say that itīs allright to kill the fellow woman/man if youīre a soldier or a politician? Or someone who lends money and charges interests? Isnīt God the only one allowed to make certain moral judgements? I never new that homosexuality was one of the seven deadly sins!

Cheers.

perrodetokio

"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott

"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott

"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott
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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular

USA
529 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2007 :  20:44:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Orwellingly Yurz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
YO: Rubicon95 said this:

"A family of a departed Unitarian want's to use the church facility for the memorial service. Would they have allowed it?"

Orwellingly Yurz Sez: I want to thank Rubicon95 for comparing me, a Unitarian, with the gay Navy vet who helped rescue comrades during Desert Storm. Most Unitarians love their country, just like this gay guy who was stiffed down in Bushland by this christianistic church; not Christian church, but christianistic church.

Some of the best people I know are gay; some of the best people I know are atheists. Some of the best people I know are Christians, but I've never met a christianist that I DID like, to turn Will Rogers' aphorism on its ear.

OY Fuckin' Vey! The evangelicals are forever missing the point.
And Jesus weeps!

"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith

If dogs run free
Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
--Bob Dylan

The neo-cons have gotten welfare for themselves down to a fine art.
--me

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"Experience is the name so many people give to their mistakes."
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2007 :  10:03:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Huffington Post reports on story, as well.

It turns out that Sinclair worked for the megachurch as a janitor. Also, the church canceled on just 24 hours notice.

The church pastor said, with sanctimonious piety:
"We did decline to host the service _ not based on hatred, not based on discrimination, but based on principle," Simons told The Associated Press. "Had we known it on the day they first spoke about it _ yes, we would have declined then. It's not that we didn't love the family."
I see. It's just that you hated Sinclair for being gay, right?

I found this quote interesting:
The church's pastor, the Rev. Gary Simons, said no one knew Sinclair, who was not a church member, was gay until the day before the Thursday service, when staff members putting together his video tribute saw pictures of men "engaging in clear affection, kissing and embracing."
What a terrible sight! The vision that aroused these Godly "staff members" [cough] was something so perverse, its like may not have happened since the time of David and Jonathan:
1 Samuel
18:1 And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.
18:2 And Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his father's house.
18:3 Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.
18:4 And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.
. . .
19:2 But Jonathan Saul's son delighted much in David: and Jonathan told David, saying, Saul my father seeketh to kill thee: now therefore, I pray thee, take heed to thyself until the morning, and abide in a secret place, and hide thyself:
. . .
20:30 Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness?
. . .
20:40 And Jonathan gave his artillery unto his lad, and said unto him, Go, carry them to the city.
20:41 And as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded.
. . .
2 Samuel
1:26 I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.
David and Jonathan,
Sittin' in a tree,
K-I-S-S-I-N-G!


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/12/2007 10:28:13
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2007 :  10:54:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So much for "do unto others..." - self-righteous fuckers.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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The Rat
SFN Regular

Canada
1342 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2007 :  06:26:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit The Rat's Homepage Send The Rat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As repugnant as I find this situation, I'll go out on a limb here and say that the church has every right to operate according to its principles. Are their attitudes outdated? Yes. Wrong? Definitely! But nobody is forced to go to a certain church, they choose it, and they must therefore abide by the rules of that church.

I heard this same story yesterday on one of our local radio stations, appropriately enough just a few hours after a good friend of mine got married - to his boyfriend. I feel fortunate to live in a country like Canada where this can not only happen, but be treated by the general populace as a non-issue. They had the ceremony at city hall, but if they had tried a church and been turned down I would have to support the church, as I support my friend's right to marry whomever he wishes.

It was a quiet affair with only a very few close friends and family, my parent's didn't get the word of the 'exclusivity' in time so they unintentionally gate-crashed! They were nevertheless welcomed, and I am proud that both of them, in their mid-eighties, could overcome a lifetime of rather conservative upbringing and be as happy for the couple as anyone else.

Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.

You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II

Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590
Edited by - The Rat on 08/14/2007 06:40:07
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2007 :  06:39:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by The Rat

As repugnant as I find this situation, I'll go out on a limb here and say that the church has every right to operate according to its principles. Are their attitudes outdated? Yes. Wrong? Definitely! But nobody is forced to go to a certain church, they choose it, and they must therefore abide by the rules of that church.


I agree wholeheartedly - it is their church/club, etc., and if they aren't receiving public money they can do what they want.

This does bring to light the fact that they do receive public money because they are exempt from paying taxes, but I digress.


by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2007 :  07:29:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

I'm assuming the man was a professed Christian and considered himself to have a strong relationship with Christ, or I doubt the man's family would have wanted to hold church services.




Yes, you are assuming. Who's to say the fellow did not pass away without a will and it was his mothers decision for a funeral in a Christian church?

If two gays come to the church and want to get married then I can understand the church rejecting this request. The requesters are actively involved in a life style that is directly opposed to the churches belief, so...

A. Why wouldn't the church spurn this offer?

and

B. Why would two gays want to get married in a Bible professing church to begin with? (IMO it's more about an attempt on getting the church to except their lifestyle)




Now this case is different as the fellow is deceased. Obviously he has lost his ability to renounce his lifestyle, and maybe it's his family who want's the funeral here or there? Now if I was the pastor of said church I would allow the funeral to progress as long as myself, or a member of my staff, was the one performing the eulogy. Now if the parents wanted to bring in an outside voice to speak at the proceedings and one who would promote the chosen lifestyle of the deceased then obviously I, as the senior pastor, would balk at this request for self-evident reasons. This is just common sense here people.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2007 :  08:15:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, as I understand it, murder and thievery and all sorts of things are considered sins.

I bet they could have brought an ex-person, professionally fried by the state to that church for a funeral, not because the church condones murder, but because the man may have been a Christian and a member of the church. Just a hunch, because many a murderer has had a Christian funeral.

It's just the usual Christian hypocrisy. What the pastor should have asked himself, as a believer, is what would Christ have done…?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2007 :  09:07:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I believe nobody here thinks the High Point Church was legally required to hold the funeral (with the possible exception of a civil breach of contract).

What this does illustrate is utter bigotry on the church's part.

This bigotry based on a cherry-picking of the Bible, as I demonstrated with the story of David and Jonathan. It's a bigotry so strong that this church is willing to disgrace itself and be seen as as bigoted in the eyes of the public, because they know other bigots will flock to them. They could have so easily simply hosted this last tribute to their janitor, but instead consciously chose to be bigots.

It's shameful, even from a basic "Christian" perspective. What would Jesus do?
John 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.



Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/14/2007 09:36:38
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2007 :  09:46:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner


What this does illustrate is utter bigotry on the church's part.





Everyone is a bigot to someone. I am still bewildered that this bothers you so.


1. Would you expect the Free Thinkers to allow a funeral for a professing Christian, complete with the Gospel message presented and everything, in their facilities? I wouldn't and I would understand why they were denying the request. Again, this is just commonsense.


2. Why would a professing Christian want his Christian funeral in a secular faculty? (unless he just wanted to force his beliefs upon the secular establishment) I can't think of any valid reason.


3. I certainly would not consider the Free Thinker a bigot based simply on them rejecting a Christian funeral on their properties. Again, this is all just commonsense here.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2007 :  10:20:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
1. Would you expect the Free Thinkers to allow a funeral for a professing Christian, complete with the Gospel message presented and everything, in their facilities? I wouldn't and I would understand why they were denying the request. Again, this is just commonsense.

I would have no problem with this, unless the message directly disparages non-christians. We have no logical or theological reason to deny them. I am not speaking for the group though, Im sure many folks would have issues...
2. Why would a professing Christian want his Christian funeral in a secular faculty? (unless he just wanted to force his beliefs upon the secular establishment) I can't think of any valid reason.

How about the person is a Christian but doesnt believe in the sanctity of any of the Churchs or maybe the deceased respected his spouses/guests beliefs to the point of not holding it in a church or maybe they are in Warizistan and do not have the choice of a Christian church...There's three valid reasons.

3. I certainly would not consider the Free Thinker a bigot based simply on them rejecting a Christian funeral on their properties. Again, this is all just commonsense here.
Well they would be technically a bigot, though not considered one socially.

I dont want to come off all high and mighty, because I agree with Bill for the most part(shudders) The Smithsonian thing is similar except that the group in question was dishonestly looking for scientific recognition and used the fact that they were allowed to show their movie in the Smithsonian as legitimacy. In that case I went out of my way to prevent the intrusion onto 'Free Thinker property' (Im still boycotting the SI for their insulting response to my inquiries.)

If in this case IF the deceased was looking to force acceptance of gays on the Church, then they are right to protest. But was that really the case here?

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 08/14/2007 10:22:10
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