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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 08/14/2007 : 11:22:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by HalfMooner
What this does illustrate is utter bigotry on the church's part.
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Everyone is a bigot to someone. I am still bewildered that this bothers you so. |
I'm bewildered (though unsurprised) that this church's bigotry doesn't both you.| 1. Would you expect the Free Thinkers to allow a funeral for a professing Christian, complete with the Gospel message presented and everything, in their facilities? I wouldn't and I would understand why they were denying the request. Again, this is just commonsense. |
I'd be happy with this.| 2. Why would a professing Christian want his Christian funeral in a secular faculty? (unless he just wanted to force his beliefs upon the secular establishment) I can't think of any valid reason. |
I don't know. That would be his choice.| 3. I certainly would not consider the Free Thinker a bigot based simply on them rejecting a Christian funeral on their properties. Again, this is all just commonsense here. |
I'd be tempted to think of such a Freethinker as being small-minded and bigoted.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2007 : 20:29:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by HalfMooner
What this does illustrate is utter bigotry on the church's part.
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Everyone is a bigot to someone. I am still bewildered that this bothers you so.
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Bigotry concerns us all. While I defend their right to be intolerant jerks, I will also work to try to change attitudes. |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2007 : 04:46:48 [Permalink]
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Verses are a matter of interpretation and picked like cherries in order to support a point of view.
Originally posted by Bill scott
If two gays come to the church and want to get married then I can understand the church rejecting this request. The requesters are actively involved in a life style that is directly opposed to the churches belief, so...
A. Why wouldn't the church spurn this offer?
and
B. Why would two gays want to get married in a Bible professing church to begin with? (IMO it's more about an attempt on getting the church to except their lifestyle)
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With that said, it is entirely possible for gays to be faithful followers of christ. Though I suspect that they would likely be members of a church with a more moderate interpretation of the bible. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2007 : 06:04:55 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by HalfMooner |
| I'm bewildered (though unsurprised) that this church's bigotry doesn't both you. |
You live in a world where PC has run amuck and caused you to think that black is white and white is black.
| 2. Why would a professing Christian want his Christian funeral in a secular faculty? (unless he just wanted to force his beliefs upon the secular establishment) I can't think of any valid reason. |
I don't know. |
Exactly. Why would a self-professing Christian want a secular wedding, funeral, etc...? Why would a self-professing secularist want to be married or have their funeral in a Christian church? Unless it's really all about forcing ones lifestyle and convictions on the other.
| 3. I certainly would not consider the Free Thinker a bigot based simply on them rejecting a Christian funeral on their properties. Again, this is all just commonsense here. |
I'd be tempted to think of such a Freethinker as being small-minded and bigoted. |
That is because you live in the blurry bizzaro world of PC gone amuck where white is black and black is white. Me, I long for the days when sanity ruled the roost on both sides. A time when Christians got married and held funerals in a Christian church and the Secularist got married at the Justice of the Peace and secular funerals were held any place but a Christian church. Prevailing wisdom and commonsense told both sides that this was normal behavior and both sides were just fine with this. Now we live in the fuzzy PC generation where black is white and white is black and secularists want to be married and have funerals in of all places the Christian church. It has gotten so ridiculous that people such as yourself will play the "bigot" card simply because a Christian church holds to their creeds, which they have held for thousands of years, and refuse secularists from holding their marriages (which is a Biblical concept created by God (Man & Women in marriage that is))and funerals in the church. Before PC this was a none issue as sanity overcame these ridiculous behaviors as secularists would not have even dreamed of a Christian funeral, which is what has laid the ground work for you playing the "bigot" card, to death I might add.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2007 : 06:18:50 [Permalink]
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Black is white and white is black? Youīve repeated that three or four times in one posting.
Really, what is your problem? PC does not exist. What does exist, however, are politeness and tolerance, which means: You donīt think like me, fine. Donīt fuck with me, though, motherfucker.
Cheers!
el perro de tokio |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2007 : 06:19:57 [Permalink]
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Like catholics and protestants living together and killing each other like in th good ol days, right?
Thatīs PC for you! |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2007 : 06:32:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Prevailing wisdom and commonsense told both sides that this was normal behavior and both sides were just fine with this. |
That people were "just fine with" bigotry doesn't mean it wasn't bigotry. Prejudice and intolerance aren't virtues no matter how many people are prejudiced and intolerant.| Now we live in the fuzzy PC generation where black is white and white is black and secularists want to be married and have funerals in of all places the Christian church. |
Except that this is about an apparently Christian gay man, not a "secularist."| It has gotten so ridiculous that people such as yourself will play the "bigot" card simply because a Christian church holds to their creeds, which they have held for thousands of years... |
So it would be acceptable to you for a church that holds to the "curse of Ham" nonsense to bar black people from its services? How would that not be bigotry?| ...marriages (which is a Biblical concept created by God (Man & Women in marriage that is))... |
Yet another attempt by Christians to lay claim to something that predates their Bible.  |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2007 : 07:21:10 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by perrodetokio |
Really, what is your problem? PC does not exist. What does exist, however, are politeness and tolerance, |
The politeness and tolerance that is displayed on this forum, such as the OP for this thread?
http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8428
| You donīt think like me, fine. Donīt fuck with me, though, motherfucker. |
I see anger management classes in your future.
Like catholics and protestants living together and killing each other like in th good ol days, right?
Thatīs PC for you! |
That's exactly what I was referring to when I said the good ol days of Christians having Christian weddings and funerals and secularists holding secular weddings and funerals. (Oh good grief)
Whatever. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2007 : 07:26:11 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| Except that this is about an apparently Christian gay man, not a "secularist." |
You can speculate all you want on how it came to be that this man was to have a Christian funeral and I have already clearly stated how I would handle this particular situation were I the pastor of this church.
| So it would be acceptable to you for a church that holds to the "curse of Ham" nonsense to bar black people from its services? How would that not be bigotry? |
The NT teaches us, beyond all doubt, that all are welcome at the foot of the cross. We have a white, black, Asian, and Latino representation amongst our congregation. One only needs to be a professing follower of the Lord Jesus Christ to become a member of our church.
| ...marriages (which is a Biblical concept created by God (Man & Women in marriage that is))... |
Yet another attempt by Christians to lay claim to something that predates their Bible. |
I never said that the Bible predates marriage. I said it was concept created by God and found in the Bible. We read in the Bible that God created the heavens and the earth. Does not mean that the Bible predates the heavens and the earth.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2007 : 07:36:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| So it would be acceptable to you for a church that holds to the "curse of Ham" nonsense to bar black people from its services? How would that not be bigotry? |
The NT teaches us, beyond all doubt, that all are welcome at the foot of the cross. We have a white, black, Asian, and Latino representation amongst our congregation. One only needs to be a professing follower of the Lord Jesus Christ to become a member of our church. |
Who gives a damn about you, Bill? You claimed that it's "ridiculous" to use the word "bigot" in relation to a Christian church holding to its creeds. I described a Christian church holding to its creeds, and asked you how it's not bigoted for doing so. You, instead of answering, talk about a different, non-bigoted (against non-whites at least) church.| I never said that the Bible predates marriage. I said it was concept created by God and found in the Bible. |
Oh, is that what you meant by "Biblical concept?"| We read in the Bible that God created the heavens and the earth. |
We read in Spiderman that a guy can climb walls.| Does not mean that the Bible predates the heavens and the earth. |
Can parse not. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2007 : 15:48:17 [Permalink]
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Unfortunately, Bill people need to (as you wist it) "play the bigot card" sim0ply because there is so much real bigotry in this world, much of it coming from fundy "Christians" like yourself. You really knock yourself out defending these folks, so it's obvious you're at least a bigoted as the disgusting High Point Church.
Let's look at just one example of how you desperately dishonest you can be in support of bigotry, Bill. You posted this:
| 2. Why would a professing Christian want his Christian funeral in a secular faculty? (unless he just wanted to force his beliefs upon the secular establishment) I can't think of any valid reason. |
I don't know. |
But you conveniently left off most of my reply, which was:| I don't know. That would be his choice. |
I'm calling you on that distortion, you pious fraud!
And I note that you have ignored my quotes from the Bible about the love between David and Jonathan, which appears to have been okay with a hypocritical God.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2007 : 12:55:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
The High Point Church of Arlington, Texas offered to host a funeral for Navy vet, Cecil Sinclair. Sinclair, who died of an infection caused by heart surgery, served in Operation Desert Storm, helping to rescue downed pilots.
But a little problem cropped up. The folks who run the mega-church discovered what was to them a shocking (though hardly hidden) "secret": Sinclair had been gay. So they retracted their invitation.
It just seemed like the Christian thing to do.
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And the rest of the story:
It was not that he was gay but that:
"Some of those photos had very strong homosexual images of kissing and hugging," he said. "My ministry associates were taken aback."
And then, he said, the family asked to have its own people officiate the service. "We had no control over the format of the memorial," Mr. Simons said.
High Point Church opposes homosexuality, and there was no way the church could host a service that appeared to endorse it, Mr. Simons said. |
They objected to the homosexual tone of the service. A service they would not have any control over. Why would a church condone a behavior they think to be sinful?
| After the church decided it would not host the funeral service, it offered to pay for another facility, Mr. Simons said. The family declined and found a local funeral home to hold the event Thursday night.Even so, the church sent over food and the video minus the images church officials found to be offensive. |
Those bastards!
Wouldn't it be hypocritical of them to allow a pro homosexual message at the church during the service? A charge so often leveled at Christians at this site.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2007 : 13:38:19 [Permalink]
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Yeah, those bastards, and their enablers.
Robb, you seem to be condoning and excusing an act of bigoty that I find repulsive.
After reneging on a promise to host the funeral for the church's own janitor because they saw a video of men hugging and kissing (see David and Jonathan), they then "sent over food" and returned the video after censoring it???
Yes, the bastards. The hypocritical, mean-spirited, small-minded, bigoted, sanctimonious bastards.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/16/2007 13:39:25 |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2007 : 15:23:13 [Permalink]
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Some eastern european men kiss on the lips as a sign of greeting. Arab men hold hands, Bedouins rub noses
and you point is Half? Are deliberately being deceptive? Or are you just being a cultural imperialist? Or just an as.. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2007 : 17:13:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rubicon95
Some eastern european men kiss on the lips as a sign of greeting. Arab men hold hands, Bedouins rub noses
and you point is Half? Are deliberately being deceptive? Or are you just being a cultural imperialist? Or just an as..
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I'm pointing out that the High Point Church reached a low point when it snubbed its janitor for doing as David and Jonathan did.
Many scholars consider David and Jonathan to have been homosexual lovers, and yet they were considered to be in the good graces of their God.
Anyone assuming that this is a false interpretation of the Bible, and thus condemning Mr.Sinclair, should consider that perhaps they also may have misinterpreted the "offending" videos.
How would these sanctimonious hypocrites have interpreted a video of Jonathan taking off his clothing in David's presence, and of the two men hugging and kissing one another? (And that assumes they did no more.) They shared a love, in David's words, that surpassed the love of women.
If these "ministry associates" saw such a video, and didn't know who the men were, I suspect they might say something like:| "Some of those photos had very strong homosexual images of kissing and hugging," he said. "My ministry associates were taken aback." |
Hypocrisy and Biblical cherry-picking are what they are. To me, they are in play. The High Point Church chose to judge Sinclair in the harshest of lights.
I gave the quote earlier from John 8, where Jesus spoke about casting the first stone. He does not claim the woman is innocent, and yet Leviticus called for the death of male and female adulterers, just as it did for homosexual men:| Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. |
Jesus continued significantly after his "cast the first stone" words:John 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. |
To me, that is one of the wisest, most beautiful parts of the Bible. I wish there were more than a few others, and that they were not smothered with the more common bigotry and genocide of that book.
What would Jesus do? I think it's obvious that he would not have been as bigoted, small-minded, and un-Christian as the High Point Church.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/16/2007 17:32:48 |
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Texas mega-church reneges on funeral offer
