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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2007 : 13:57:38 [Permalink]
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Bill wrote: You are making a truly extraordinary claim – that a man literally rose from the dead – and yet you do not present any evidence? How long have you been on this forum, Bill.
Oh what the hell, I'll present the evidence for you since you are being lazy. There only evidence that exists for the resurrection are the gospels. Despite the shocking nature of this supposed event, there are zero independent sources of documentation. There is also zero circumstantial evidence.
And what sort of evidence are the gospels? Let's see, they were written by individuals who were actively promoting this new religion of Christianity. They do not agree on a good many details regarding the resurrection story. But let's take a very significant detail where the Gospels disagree: Matthew, Mark, and Luke say that the Last Supper was on a Passover Seder, and crucified the next day, which would be the first day of Passover. John then says that Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover. How do supposed eye-witnesses get such an important detail wrong? Why is the description of the Last Supper in the synoptic gospels of a Jewish holiday, but in John it is not? Was Mary alone when she discovered the tomb, or with other women? Did Judas stab or hang himself? How do eye witnesses get this stuff wrong? And if they get these kinds of details wrong, how can they be trusted on the question of a truly extraordinary claim? People don't just rise from the dead, so if someone is claiming this happened, we need better evidence than their say-so.
Now let's add to this that Biblical scholars agree that the Gospels were not, in fact, written by the apostles they were named for. Let's add the fact that Biblical scholars also agree that the literary similarities in the synoptic gospels show a relationship of derision. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synoptic_problem These are not merely three different eye witness accounts of the same events. If they were, there would not be so much identical ordering the phrasing, nor would there be so much discrepancy between certain details and styles. These three authors had different religious visions in mind that they wanted to promote. They were not giving honest and straightforward account of things they witnessed.
| I particularly like the one that starts off with a warm little pond hidden away in some primordial haze. |
There you go misrepresenting an argument that you've proven over and over that you don't even understand.
You either have:
A. An infinite God
or
B. Infinite matter. |
For fuck's sake, Bill! Not only has this false ultimatum of yours already been disputed on this forum, but it was already disputed by me (and others) in February of 2006! To quote myself in response to you:
| Newtonian mechanics worked very well for a long while in theoretical physics. It worked so well that it is still used by scientists when calculating about big things, like people, planets, stars. However, we now know that funda |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/14/2007 18:47:11 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 08/14/2007 : 14:34:16 [Permalink]
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rofl... letting bill troll you like that!
Billy is just a liar for jesus and a forum troll. He has only once, that I recall, actually participated in a substantive debate in these forums.
Kinda sad really.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2007 : 17:10:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
As one who died so that I may live I put his goodness at a level of infinity |
That's an incredibly weak argument, Bill.
By every christian explanation I've ever heard, God is not "alive" in the sense that we think of it, and certainly cannot "die".
I suspect you're actually referring to Jesus, about which there's no real consensus about his relationship with God. "Son" has no real or sensible meaning in relation to an omnipotent being.
For an omnipotent being, sending some manifestation of itself to earth to suffer for a few a few years before yanking him back home is inconsequential.
Would you worship me for donating $1 to a worthy cause? I suspect not. My sacrifice however, is proportionally much more impressive than God's.
Edited to fix my currency denomination (I upped it from cents to $1 but originally left a typo. Either way a small finite number over a larger finite number is still much bigger than a finite something over infinity. |
John's just this guy, you know. |
| Edited by - JohnOAS on 08/15/2007 05:07:01 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2007 : 18:20:25 [Permalink]
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| As one who died so that I may live I put his goodness at a level of infinity |
Both Ghandi and Martin Luther King knowingly risked their lives and then lost their lives in the cause of freedom and equality for others. Plenty of other humans have done something like this. And yet, I would never put their goodness at a level of infinity.
I certainly will not do so for a god who supposedly is all powerful. An all powerful god need not sacrifice anything to get what he wants. If he want us to live and be all good, we would live and be all good. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/14/2007 18:20:41 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2007 : 18:52:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
As one who died so that I may live I put his goodness at a level of infinity |
The notion that faith in Christ is to be rewarded by an eternity of bliss, while a dependence upon reason, observation, and experience merits everlasting pain, is too absurd for refutation, and can be relieved only by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance called ‘faith.'
~ Robert G. Ingersoll
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Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 08/15/2007 : 02:04:27 [Permalink]
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| I particularly like the one that starts off with a warm little pond hidden away in some primordial haze. |
I've always been a little fond of this one, too. As I recall, it's a paraphrase of something Darwin himself wrote and, typically, the creationists have quote-mined it and used it as a rather pathetic straw man ever since. As support for an argument though, it ain't hittin' on shit.
But Bill, current thought is that the 'warm, little pond' might not have been warm at all, no. It might have been the 400 degree Celsius inferno of a bathypelagic black smoker.
So whaddahell, Bill? Don't you see that science is putting forth effort in researching this question whilst you and your cohorts do nothing but wave your hands and spew hyperbole?
As for the Resurection......
Tell ya what, Bill, when you, or anyone, or anything for that matter, magically returns life into a mangled, three-days-cold corpse, and repeats the experiment as science insists upon, I'll change my thinking. Doesn't even have to be a human corpse; a road-kill 'possum or the like will do nicely.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2007 : 06:34:30 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by JohnOAS |
That's an incredibly weak argument, Bill.
By every christian explanation I've ever heard, God is not "alive" in the sense that we think of it, and certainly cannot "die". |
Do understand or have you been familiarized with the doctrine of the Trinity?
| I suspect you're actually referring to Jesus, about which there's no real consensus about his relationship with God. "Son" has no real or sensible meaning in relation to an omnipotent being |
Consensus? How about the consensus where Jesus claims that he who has seen me has seen the Father?
| For an omnipotent being, sending some manifestation of itself to earth to suffer for a few a few years before yanking him back home is inconsequential. |
To the secularist non-Christian, sure, I would say this true.
| Would you worship me for donating $1 to a worthy cause? |
No.
| My sacrifice however, is proportionally much more impressive than God's. |
I am sure that in your reality, which you have framed in your mind, this is true. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2007 : 21:38:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Do understand or have you been familiarized with the doctrine of the Trinity? |
1) Me, naked
2) Catherine Zeta Jones, naked
3) Bathtub full of cherry flavoured Jell-o
You can substitute a few names for #2, but there's my idea of a trinity. |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2007 : 21:57:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Consensus? How about the consensus where Jesus claims that he who has seen me has seen the Father? |
And what do you think he meant by that cryptic comment, bill? See, a great many people believe that Jesus really only ever claimed to be a "deity" in the sense that we are all god's "children," sons and daughters alike, and that we all hold a spark of the divine. When you look at Jesus--or indeed any human--you should see that piece of the divine. You should see god.
And this interpretation has the benefit of most closely matching Jesus' actions. After all, the man didn't parade around like a god but instead stressed charity and good works. He washed his disciples feet. He stressed humility and working together for the common good, right here on Earth. He acted as if no one was better than him, that all human life was sacred.
And so there are many who think, quite justifiably, that Jesus would have been appalled to find himself turned into a god, since it misses the entire point of his message. Jesus was trying to tell us that we're all the same, and instead people go around talking about how special he was. They say it doesn't matter how you live your life, works don't matter, just believe that Jesus was a god and you get into heaven. Can you imagine how such a perversion of his basic philosophy would sicken Jesus today? Can you imagine anything further away from Jesus' aims and desires?
Ah, but you won't think. You can't. You're indoctrinated and literally incapable of reasoning things out for yourself.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/15/2007 21:59:13 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2007 : 13:55:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by The Rat
Originally posted by Bill scott
Do understand or have you been familiarized with the doctrine of the Trinity? |
1) Me, naked
2) Catherine Zeta Jones, naked
3) Bathtub full of cherry flavoured Jell-o
You can substitute a few names for #2, but there's my idea of a trinity.
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Works for me...  |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Can the christian god get anything right?
