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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2550 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2007 :  10:58:19  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message
I guess you've all heard of the new "movie" that the ID people are putting out by now, basically it's just them complaning about how those who dare go against the Darwinian establishment are persecuted. Yeah, more crybaby stuff! Happily, though, on the blog of Ben Stein the guy who hosts the movie, people are calling him and the producers to task for it. The very first comment about sums things up!

Actually, Einstein did not believe in a personal God and would abhor this sort of political strongarming of religion into the classroom. Take note:

The idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I am unable to take seriously. [Albert Einstein, letter to Hoffman and Dukas, 1946]

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals Himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings. [Albert Einstein, in a letter to Rabbi Herbert Goldstein]

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own — a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms. [Albert Einstein, obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955]

People like the opportunistic Ben Stein would do well as to understand the scientific method. Evolutionary biology has been under the microscope and studied rigorously for 130 years. ID, and its precursor creationism, has not even bothered to produce anything in terms of research.

Perhaps Mr. Stein would benefit to ask some serious questions of his ID proponents. Here are some suggestions:

1) Give a comprehensive statement about what ID is. What does it mean?

2) What predictions does ID theory make?

3) What principles and standards are used to evaluate evidence?

4) What recent discoveries have ID researchers made?

5) What features of ID theory are subject to modification? What kind of observation, if it were seen, would change ID theory? What criteria is there for accepting a change?

6) How does ID explain the evidence produced by conventional science?

I highly doubt any of this will be addressed. This is going to be one of those fawning, self-congratulatory “documentaries.” by the right to reassure how great they are….

“Aren't you smart! All those smarmy professors think they're so great, but you figured it out and they're wrong!”

“Christianity is under assault! Everyone is against you but you're so strong for believing still! It must be so hard when you have hundreds of millions of friends!”

“You're a martyr! Every one of your problems can be blamed on a single group of non-believers/scientists who are making ‘Merika awful! Oooooh! They're so mean and arrogant!”

Pathetic.


Comment #11 is even better:
Sorry Ben, but you're completely and utterly wrong. The recent legal case in Dover, for example, did NOT deny the teaching of creationism in the schools. It said that there was no evidence for intelligent design and that ID does not meet the criteria to be considered science and therefore should not be taught in school SCIENCE classes.

The judge ruled (correctly) that the only arguments that the ID folks were able to put forth were either “Straw man” fallacies where they misquoted what evolution was in order to shoot it down, or they were “false dichotomy” fallacies. i.e. “If Science can't explain this (or more likely if the ID proponent’...
[The rest of this post was lost due to a database crash - Dave W.]

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.

Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2007 :  12:32:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
Actually, Einstein did not believe in a personal God and would abhor this sort of political strongarming of religion into the classroom.


What I abhor is people arguing over what Einstein would think. Honestly, who cares? Do we care what Bohr thinks? Or Crick? Or Cauchy, Mereschkowsky, Pasteur, or Miller? No, no one does. What a scientist thinks about matters outside of science should be of no concern to us. And the only reason why Einstein is always argued over is because he is one of the very few scientists that people actually know of. Furthermore, speculating on what a person who died over 50 years ago would think about a current social-political situation is just absurd and pointless.

Perhaps this should be another one of those internet rules. The first person who attempts to support their position with imaginary endorsement by Einstein is an idiot. I'm certain Einstein would agree with that.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2007 :  12:57:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
How can one argue with a guy like Ben Stein? Not only is he a fine comedy actor and screenwriter, and a "pro-life" activist, he was also a Richard Nixon speechwriter.

Just two years ago, Stein blamed those who exposed his hero Nixon's criminal Watergate scandal as being responsible for the Khymer Rouge's genocide, so you know he's logical and honest.

Stein wrote:
So, this is the great boast of the enemies of Richard Nixon, including Mark Felt: they made the conditions necessary for the Cambodian genocide. If there is such a thing as kharma, if there is such a thing as justice in this life of the next, Mark Felt has bought himself the worst future of any man on this earth. And Bob Woodward is right behind him, with Ben Bradlee bringing up the rear. Out of their smug arrogance and contempt, they hatched the worst nightmare imaginable: genocide. I hope they are happy now -- because their future looks pretty bleak to me.
And Stein's a Pepperdine University law professor!

A law professor, just like the author of the Discovery Institute's Wedge Document, the pious fraud, Phillip E. Johnson.




Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/23/2007 13:04:50
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2007 :  13:56:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Perhaps this should be another one of those internet rules. The first person who attempts to support their position with imaginary endorsement by Einstein is an idiot. I'm certain Einstein would agree with that.
Indeed, as would many others. Stephen J. Gould comes to mind.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2007 :  15:28:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Originally posted by filthy

Perhaps this should be another one of those internet rules. The first person who attempts to support their position with imaginary endorsement by Einstein is an idiot. I'm certain Einstein would agree with that.
Indeed, as would many others. Stephen J. Gould comes to mind.




Gotta have a name for that fallacy of misquoting dead opponents. How 'bout argumentum ad corporum? Is that proper Latin?

BTW, Hitler loved Creationism, especially ID.



Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/23/2007 15:32:59
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2550 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2007 :  16:36:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message
Well, my last comment didn't make it so I'll put it here (can't be censorship, there's too many dissenting comments on there already)


---------------------------------------
Ok, so many mistakes, so little time...


#185, jb says:

"Basic premise of at least 3/4 of the comments here? “Shut up.” Most obviously would censor the film if they had that power, but since they don't have that power they are content to simply engage in the basest of ad hominem attacks and thinly-veiled threats."

Right! Obviously you've never seen the flash animation that Dembski had of Judge Jones, did you?


Or maybe the threats that he got?
http://redstaterabble.blogspot.com/2006/03/threats-of-violence-against-dover.html (check the news article in the story, though it requires registration)

Or Dembski calling Jones a "putz" because he supposedly "copied" the ACLU's opinion (http://www.uncommondescent.com/courts/judge-jones-towering-intellectual-or-narcissistic-putz/) never mind that it's actually common practice for judges to do that??
http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/12/weekend_at_behe.html

(from the Pandasthumb article):
"Now, Vice President for Legal Affairs John West is not a lawyer, so he may not be familiar with the fact that this is exactly what proposed findings of fact are for. They are proposed findings which a judge, if he or she agrees, then incorporates as his or her own findings. Both the school district and the plaintiffs filed proposed findings, and the judge went with the findings he found most convincing. Incidentally, the school district doesn't seem to have ever objected to the plaintiffs' filing their proposed findings.

The press release suggests that Judge Jones did something improper in adopting the plaintiffs' proposed findings as his own—but that is just what a judge does when he finds that the party has proven its case. In re Las Colinas, Inc., 426 F.2d 1005, 1008. (1st Cir. 1970) (“The practice of inviting counsel to submit proposed findings of fact and conclusions of law is well established as a valuable aid to decision making.”) As the Supreme Court put it in a slightly different context,
...."
(read on, and learn something)



Or how the ID people attacked Dr. Barbara Forrest?
http://www.csicop.org/intelligentdesignwatch/kitzmiller.html

(from Forrest):
"Scheduled to testify the following week but delayed by Hurricane Rita, I used the extra time to prepare for my testimony and to stay current on ID activities by visiting DI's website. On September 29, I noticed that DI had posted a transcript of an interview I had done— except that I hadn't done it. The transcript was fake. Apparently meant (though not marked) as a parody, the organization whose self-described goal is “to support high quality scholarship . . . relevant to the question of evidence for intelligent design in nature” ridiculed me by, among other things, having fictitious radio host “Marvin Waldburger” refer to me as “Dr. Barking Forrest Ph.D.” [25] If DI thought this would unsettle me, they were ignoring the fact that I had just been through two killer hurricanes. I could only shake my head at their doing something so jaw-droppingly stupid. If they were hoping Judge Jones would see and be influenced by this silliness, it was just another sign of the disrespect for his intelligence and integrity that began before the trial and continues today (see below)."



(jb again):
"Not a one of ‘em has seen this film, but when PZ Myers says, “Jump!” the dogs dutifully jump. Amazing that he'd have his peanut gallery come here to prove - in writing! - the very premise of this film."

Wrong. While some people are throwing insults, I've noticed that most of the posters here are actually trying to say just why ID is wrong. And sorry, nobody told me to do anything. We, at least, are not sheep.

Sure, we haven't seen the film yet, but guess what? We're replying to the stuff that Stein has posted, as well as in som

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2007 :  19:27:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Damn, you're good at this kind of thing, T_I! I want to thank you for the effort.

I was wondering who might be behind the financing of "Expelled," A likely suspect is DI's own Daddy Godbucks billionaire, Howard Ahmanson, Jr. But wouldn't it be interesting if classic crackpot Stuart Pivar contributed?




Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/23/2007 21:25:20
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2007 :  20:35:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Good grief:
"The incredible thing about Expelled is that we don't resort to manipulating our interviews for the purpose of achieving the 'shock effect,' something that has become common in documentary film these days," said Walt Ruloff, co-founder of Premise Media and co-Executive Producer. "People will be stunned to actually find out what elitist scientists proclaim, which is that a large majority of Americans are simpletons who believe in a fairy tale. Premise Media took on this difficult mission because we believe the greatest asset of humanity is our freedom to explore and discover truth."

- What Happened to Freedom of Speech?
Next thing you know, the citizens will be burning down the observatories.

Seriously, nothing happened to freedom of speech. The First Amendment has never guaranteed the right to teach religion as science in a public school.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2007 :  05:05:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
Originally posted by Dave W.
"The incredible thing about Expelled is that we don't resort to manipulating our interviews..."


Except where they didn't tell PZ Myers what he was really being interviewed for. I wonder how much editing they will do with him and the other interviews....

edit: can't spell Myers

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
Edited by - pleco on 08/24/2007 09:31:29
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2007 :  06:10:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
By the way, "Stein" is almost an anagram of "Stalin." Think about it.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2007 :  07:20:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
That press release shows the film's true colors. Some examples:
What freedom-loving student wouldn't be outraged to discover that his high school science teacher is teaching a theory as indisputable fact...
Creationist Claim CA201.
...and that university professors unmercifully crush any fellow scientists who dare question the prevailing system of belief?
This is why the new verb "Sternberging" more properly means "portraying oneself as persecuted for one's ideas when one hasn't been" than it does "persecuting someone for their ideas."
...it's a disturbing new documentary that will shock anyone who thinks all scientists are free to follow the evidence wherever it may lead.
They are - creationists haven't presented much evidence to follow.
Ben Stein... is on a journey to answer one of the biggest questions ever asked: Were we designed or are we simply the end result of an ancient mud puddle struck by lightning?
False dichotomy.
Stein, who is also a lawyer, an economist, a former presidential speechwriter, author and social commentator...
But not a biologist.
He discovers an elitist scientific establishment that has traded in its skepticism for dogma.
It's easy to misread that if you're ignorant of how much effort has gone into the science already.
But even worse, along the way, Stein uncovers a long line of biologists, astronomers, chemists and philosophers who have had their reputations destroyed and their careers ruined by a scientific establishment that allows absolutely no dissent from Charles Darwin's theory of random mutation and natural selection.
Considering that biologists today know that Darwin's ideas aren't the end of the story, this discovery of Stein's must have been fabricated out of... more ignorance.

Expelled uncovers that educators and scientists are being ridiculed...
Why shouldn't ridiculous ideas be ridiculed?
...denied tenure...
This is a reference to either Guillermo Gonzalez (for whom there's little evidence he was denied tenure because of his ID advocacy), or Francis Beckwith (who was initially denied but won tenure on appeal, with the help of even anti-ID people). Either way, this is another example of the filmmakers Sternberging (see above).
For example, Stein meets Richard Sternberg, a double PhD biologist who allowed a peer-reviewed research paper describing the evidence for intelligence in the universe to be published in the scientific journal Proceedings. Not long after publication, officials from the National Center for Science Education and the Smithsonian Institution where Sternberg was a research fellow began a coordinated smear and intimidation campaign to get the promising young scientist expelled from his position. This attack on scientific freedom was so egregious that it prompted a congressional investigation.
This paragraph is almost entirely comprised of misrepresentations of the truth (see the link for Sternberging, above).
There are others, such as Caroline Crocker, a brilliant biology teacher at George Mason University who was forced out of the university for briefly discussing problems with Darwinian theory and for telling the students that some scientists believe there is evidence of design in the universe.
The university denies that accusation, and besides, if she was teaching old creationist lies to her students, the university should have fired her.
The list goes on and on.
I'm sure it does, but that's hardly impressive.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2007 :  09:01:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
PZ Myers explains the level of honesty we can expect from this film.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2007 :  14:12:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
And over here is a great blog post about who's been "expelled" and what they're doing now.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2007 :  09:03:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
"Expelled: No Intelligence Evident." This nice piece by Steve Reuland points out that Ben Stein thinks scientists can be "BANNED." From what, nobody knows.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2007 :  14:30:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
More PZ Myers, further indicting the honesty of the filmmakers.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2007 :  18:19:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message
This looks like my kind of movie!

Should this not be in the conspiracy section?

What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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