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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2007 :  11:44:38  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To Dave W. and all those who participated in the thread I posted a couple of weeks ago, I would be interested in your appraisal of the mission statement on Dr. Haisch's website.

bngbuck

www.ufoskeptic.org/index.html

Edited by - bngbuck on 09/02/2007 11:48:10

JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2007 :  12:33:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was not able to participate in your last talk; for reasons that could be considered somewhat related, but I did read the discourse.

Anywhoo, I think that group thought is natural and comforting for humans in almost all circumstances. When thinking about groups of people seeing something unidentified they will tend to rely on views that have previously been presented to them by the group. This is why individual people within large groups will perceive the same conclusion as the group regardless of the individuals interaction with the group concerning the specific incident.






What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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JEROME DA GNOME
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2418 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2007 :  12:55:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I enjoyed this statement very much:

I propose that true skepticism is called for today: neither the gullible acceptance of true belief nor the closed-minded rejection of the scoffer masquerading as the skeptic. One should be skeptical of both the believers and the scoffers. The negative claims of pseudo-skeptics who offer facile explanations must themselves be subject to criticism.


I think this thought is laking in the skeptic community today.

Are there ETs?

Do "we" posses ET technology?

I have no evidence outside of circumstantial and speculation. Science does predict that there must be ETs somewhere out there, as such these contentions are plausible.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2007 :  13:17:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck

To Dave W. and all those who participated in the thread I posted a couple of weeks ago, I would be interested in your appraisal of the mission statement on Dr. Haisch's website.

bngbuck

www.ufoskeptic.org/index.html
I was unable to find anything on that web site labelled as a mission statement. Did you mean the intoductory "letter" thing on the homepage?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2007 :  13:25:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

I enjoyed this statement very much:

I propose that true skepticism is called for today: neither the gullible acceptance of true belief nor the closed-minded rejection of the scoffer masquerading as the skeptic. One should be skeptical of both the believers and the scoffers. The negative claims of pseudo-skeptics who offer facile explanations must themselves be subject to criticism.


I think this thought is laking in the skeptic community today.
I think you're missing the skepticism, then.
Are there ETs?
Very likely.
Do "we" posses ET technology?
Extremely unlikely.
I have no evidence outside of circumstantial and speculation.
Right.
Science does predict that there must be ETs somewhere out there...
No, it doesn't. Our best science predicts that the probability of there being other life "somewhere out there" is very high.
...as such these contentions are plausible.
Plausible ideas are likely ideas.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2007 :  17:55:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Holy cow, Dave! We agreed on 2/3 of one of my posts.





Are you getting soft?

What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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The Rat
SFN Regular

Canada
1342 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2007 :  19:07:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit The Rat's Homepage Send The Rat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

I enjoyed this statement very much:

I propose that true skepticism is called for today: neither the gullible acceptance of true belief nor the closed-minded rejection of the scoffer masquerading as the skeptic. One should be skeptical of both the believers and the scoffers. The negative claims of pseudo-skeptics who offer facile explanations must themselves be subject to criticism.


I think this thought is laking in the skeptic community today.


On my Bebo blog you'll find an article titled Skepticism Opens Minds, which may answer some of your questions about that.

Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Are there ETs?

Of course there are. Do I have any direct evidence? No, but with all the possibilities in our universe I would be very surprised if there weren't.

Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Do "we" posses ET technology?

Yep, because to whatever else is out there we are the ETs.

Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

I have no evidence outside of circumstantial and speculation. Science does predict that there must be ETs somewhere out there, as such these contentions are plausible.


I doubt that it can prove there are ETs, just show that it's highly likely.


Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.

You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II

Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2007 :  19:55:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, Dave, OK, OK, the introductory "letter" thingy on the homepage.

I was curious as to your and any other SFN member's appraisal, response, reaction, agreement or disagreement or even interest in Dr. Haich's comments.

When he states - "But the fact of the matter is, there does exist a vast amount of high quality, albeit enigmatic, data. UFO sightings are not limited to farmers in backward rural areas. There are astronomers and pilots and NASA engineers -- and others who have been around the block a few times when it comes to observing natural phenomena -- who have witnessed events for which there is no plausible conventional explanation", - do you feel that links or detailed references are necessary for his comments (and opinions) to have sufficient credibility for your further consideration?

I realize he is not asking for your opinion. However, I am asking for an opinion from you and any of the other SFI members regarding his statements and assertions; if you can offer that without links or references to the events he is talking about.
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2007 :  20:04:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On my Bebo blog you'll find an article titled Skepticism Opens Minds, which may answer some of your questions about that.


Well written, and I agree. I think is very close to the point made in the OPs link.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2007 :  20:07:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jerome.....

I understand that you have been something of a pariah in these parts recently, however, banished or not, I thank you for your reply.

Anywhoo, I think that group thought is natural and comforting for humans in almost all circumstances. When thinking about groups of people seeing something unidentified they will tend to rely on views that have previously been presented to them by the group. This is why individual people within large groups will perceive the same conclusion as the group regardless of the individuals interaction with the group concerning the specific incident.

Ironically, this is a perfect analysis of the remarkable response(s) that I received when I first posted my question in the SFI forum several weeks ago.

I think your concept (also offered by Half-Mooner, and others) is indeed relevant to the subject matter I am writing on and I appreciate your input.

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The Rat
SFN Regular

Canada
1342 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2007 :  20:25:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit The Rat's Homepage Send The Rat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck

When he states - "But the fact of the matter is, there does exist a vast amount of high quality, albeit enigmatic, data. UFO sightings are not limited to farmers in backward rural areas. There are astronomers and pilots and NASA engineers -- and others who have been around the block a few times when it comes to observing natural phenomena -- who have witnessed events for which there is no plausible conventional explanation", - do you feel that links or detailed references are necessary for his comments (and opinions) to have sufficient credibility for your further consideration?


Well, it certainly makes it easier for us. I don't expect to get away with no research, but providing a starting point is simply common courtesy.


Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.

You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II

Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590
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The Rat
SFN Regular

Canada
1342 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2007 :  20:30:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit The Rat's Homepage Send The Rat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just popped over to his home page, and I'm having a little trouble with his opening statement:

We are in the curious situation today that our best modern physics and astrophysics theories arguably predict that we should be experiencing extraterrestrial visitation,...

Um, why?


Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.

You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II

Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590
Edited by - The Rat on 09/02/2007 20:31:26
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2007 :  20:48:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by The Rat

Originally posted by bngbuck

When he states - "But the fact of the matter is, there does exist a vast amount of high quality, albeit enigmatic, data. UFO sightings are not limited to farmers in backward rural areas. There are astronomers and pilots and NASA engineers -- and others who have been around the block a few times when it comes to observing natural phenomena -- who have witnessed events for which there is no plausible conventional explanation", - do you feel that links or detailed references are necessary for his comments (and opinions) to have sufficient credibility for your further consideration?


Well, it certainly makes it easier for us. I don't expect to get away with no research, but providing a starting point is simply common courtesy.





http://www.ufoskeptic.org/index.html

http://www.ufoskeptic.org/index.html

http://www.ufoskeptic.org/index.html

http://www.ufoskeptic.org/index.html

http://www.ufoskeptic.org/index.html

These are from the link in the OP.

What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2007 :  20:53:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Frankly, bngbuck, I can do without your snotty misrepresentation of my involvement in the previous thread. My first post in this thread was to ensure we were talking about the same thing, and I get back from you a tremendous amount of hostility. I wonder what marty's take on this sour turn of events would be. But I digress.
Originally posted by bngbuck

Yes, Dave, OK, OK, the introductory "letter" thingy on the homepage.

I was curious as to your and any other SFN member's appraisal, response, reaction, agreement or disagreement or even interest in Dr. Haich's comments.

When he states - "But the fact of the matter is, there does exist a vast amount of high quality, albeit enigmatic, data. UFO sightings are not limited to farmers in backward rural areas. There are astronomers and pilots and NASA engineers -- and others who have been around the block a few times when it comes to observing natural phenomena -- who have witnessed events for which there is no plausible conventional explanation", - do you feel that links or detailed references are necessary for his comments (and opinions) to have sufficient credibility for your further consideration?

I realize he is not asking for your opinion. However, I am asking for an opinion from you and any of the other SFI members regarding his statements and assertions; if you can offer that without links or references to the events he is talking about.
Dr. Haisch admits the predictions of science are arguable, and appears to rely heavily upon argument from authority (both his own authority and that of people he trusts). Proper skepticism demands that arguments stand independent of the people making the claims and how trustworthy they are. And if a prediction is arguable, then it's hardly a reliable premise upon which to build a hypothesis.

Also, "no plausible conventional explanation" doesn't open the door to any implausible explanation which might come along. And visits from ETs are surely implausible, because otherwise the good doctor would have included them in with the other plausible explanations. Plus, any theory which rests upon negative evidence ("I'm an expert and I can't explain this phenomenon") is a poor, poor substitute for science. No scientific theory which stands accepted today is premised on such logic.

With all the above in mind, further consderation of Dr. Haisch's arguments would require the presentation of detailed references. In other words, there's nothing on his introductory page which suggests to me that I should concede Dr. Haisch's arguments, because I see much in the way of poor argumentation written there. And if his calls for more proper skepticism are honest, he would surely understand my position.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2007 :  20:54:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

http://www.ufoskeptic.org/index.html

http://www.ufoskeptic.org/index.html

http://www.ufoskeptic.org/index.html

http://www.ufoskeptic.org/index.html

http://www.ufoskeptic.org/index.html

These are from the link in the OP.
Five copies of the same link that's in the OP, Jerome?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2007 :  21:34:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dave said:
Also, "no plausible conventional explanation" doesn't open the door to any implausible explanation which might come along. And visits from ETs are surely implausible, because otherwise the good doctor would have included them in with the other plausible explanations. Plus, any theory which rests upon negative evidence ("I'm an expert and I can't explain this phenomenon") is a poor, poor substitute for science. No scientific theory which stands accepted today is premised on such logic.


Is not dark matter a theory based on zero evidence, just the inability to explain various phenomenon?


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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