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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 09/07/2007 : 23:19:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
My contention will always be that most people are moderate. |
Well, I said "largISH percentage." Radicalism doesn't require a majority to ruin the libertarian utopia. Especially not when another largish percentage of people are neither radical nor moderate (I believe you've referred to them as "sheep" in the past).
Nor, of course, are people consistent in their moderatism (new word?). People have only so-much time, resources and passion to dole out, so they're forced to prioritize their agendas. Nobody can be a radical about all issues, simply because there are too many issues and not enough hours in a day. And to satisfy every voter, there would have to be thousands of candidates for every office, each with a different set of opinions. Such situations force people to compromise on their ideals, which leads to things like the "anybody but Bush" movement.
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I believe the reverse would be true. In your scenario the small number of radicals could; through powerful government, usurp power from the people rather easily particularly with the description of the "sheep" that you provided. I do not think I used that term; maybe I presented that idea.
In my scenario the small number of radicals could cause much less harm to many fewer people because the venue of concentrated power would not exist.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 23:57:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I believe the reverse would be true. In your scenario the small number of radicals could; through powerful government, usurp power from the people rather easily particularly with the description of the "sheep" that you provided. |
Actually, what I had envisioned was the radicals usurping power and thus creating a powerful government where there was only a weak libertarian ideal.| I do not think I used that term; maybe I presented that idea. |
Perhaps you are correct. I get my libertarians mixed up.| In my scenario the small number of radicals could cause much less harm to many fewer people because the venue of concentrated power would not exist. |
What could possibly prevent the power-hungry from creating such a venue using the power left open by the "don't cares" and the "I guess that sounds good to mes" and all the other non-radical and non-moderates? Libertarian ideals require that all those groups exist in tiny numbers, only. But they don't, and they haven't been caused by any modern force. Lickspittles, toadies and yes-men have been with us since the dawn of history. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2007 : 03:28:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
These are the problems caused by a publicly funded school system.
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No, these are the problems caused by people who want to tamper with publicly funded school systems toward their own ends or the ends of their sponsers, which is the same slimy thing.
Here in the states, we get it all the time from various religious groups and other would-be tyrants with an agenda other than the honest education of our children.
Wishing all luck, Rat!
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The publicly funded school system is already funding religion.
If there was not public funding than everyone would get to choose individually. There would be NO argument.
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Would they now.... How exactly is the current system funding religion? As I recall, there are laws against that sort of thing, in this country, at least.
And what of the children of the people who are living hand-to-mouth to start with? What "choice" would they have?
This conservative "voucher" bullshit is no more than another form of public funding with the bulk of the funds untimatly ending up in seclect schools approved by; guess who!
Right the first try; well done!
Schools emulating the likes of Liberty University and other places of lower education as approved by the Usual Suspects, who's various hangers-on ("lickspittles, toadies and yes-men," thank you Dave) are the ones making the most noise about it. That is where the bulk of the money would untimatly end up. Always, Jerome, look for who is grinding the axe because he is the one with the biggest stake in cutting the tree.
The American Public School system has performed quite well for a long time, in spite of the tampering of various political factions, most of whom represent fundamentalist Christians, who are pissed that they can't hold lock-step prayer meetings in science class and thus produce the sort of young ignoramous' that they so dote upon. We need to take the sleezy politics out of it and improve upon it, not throw away something that works.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2007 : 07:51:50 [Permalink]
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Dave said:
What could possibly prevent the power-hungry from creating such a venue using the power left open by the "don't cares" and the "I guess that sounds good to mes" and all the other non-radical and non-moderates? Libertarian ideals require that all those groups exist in tiny numbers, only. But they don't, and they haven't been caused by any modern force. Lickspittles, toadies and yes-men have been with us since the dawn of history. |
Here I agree; but this is just the expected progression of any man made system, it tends to continue in this direction until it fails or reverses course (which is rare). The ideas I am talking about attempt to stifle this progression. |
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2007 : 08:02:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Would they now.... How exactly is the current system funding religion? As I recall, there are laws against that sort of thing, in this country, at least. |
I was talking about the Canadian system which funds catholic schools.
| And what of the children of the people who are living hand-to-mouth to start with? What "choice" would they have? |
As taxes would be less, and competition would reduce prices without a monopoly structure this would not be a concern for most. For those few that still needed assistance, government certainly could provide a program like "food stamps". Just because some people need food stamps does not mean that we force most to use food stamps.
| This conservative "voucher" bullshit is no more than another form of public funding with the bulk of the funds untimatly ending up in seclect schools approved by; guess who! |
Agreed, the voucher bullshit is only another angle of control. In fact this system will garner more power for government over currently private schools.
| Always, Jerome, look for who is grinding the axe because he is the one with the biggest stake in cutting the tree. |
Great phrase! The southern version of cui bono.
The American Public School system has performed quite well for a long time, in spite of the tampering of various political factions, most of whom represent fundamentalist Christians, who are pissed that they can't hold lock-step prayer meetings in science class and thus produce the sort of young ignoramous' that they so dote upon. We need to take the sleezy politics out of it and improve upon it, not throw away something that works.
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My argument would be that the system works to the benefit of the few at the harm of the many. Ever notice how few in congress send their children to public school?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2007 : 08:43:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by filthy
Would they now.... How exactly is the current system funding religion? As I recall, there are laws against that sort of thing, in this country, at least. |
I was talking about the Canadian system which funds catholic schools.
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Not all provinces fund Catholic schools.
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Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2007 : 13:14:08 [Permalink]
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I've placed the following notice on our front door, printed in large letters. Since the official name of the party is 'Progressive Conservative' I couldn't resist putting the question mark after 'Progressive'.
PROGRESSIVE(?)
CONSERVATIVE
CANVASSERS:
DON'T BOTHER KNOCKING, AND
TELL JOHN TORY TO TAKE HIS
ANTI-SCIENCE AND ANTI-EDUCATION
IDEAS TO SOME PLACE WHERE THEY
MIGHT BE MORE WELCOME: IRAN
FOR INSTANCE, OR ANY OTHER
DYSFUNCTIONAL THIRD WORLD
THEOCRACY WHERE MYTHS AND
FABLES TAKE PRECEDENCE OVER
COMMON SENSE AND SCIENTIFIC
LITERACY.
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Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2007 : 22:09:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by The Rat
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by filthy
Would they now.... How exactly is the current system funding religion? As I recall, there are laws against that sort of thing, in this country, at least. |
I was talking about the Canadian system which funds catholic schools.
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Not all provinces fund Catholic schools.
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School Funding is usually primarily on a local basis from property Taxes.
In Alberta this is the case.
There is a Public (non reilgous) school system and a Separate (essentially Catholic school system) In Calgary the Jewish and Islamic schools operate under the umbrella of the Separate school system.
In cities and municipalities the where there are two school boards,
taxpayers choose whether to direct the education component of there property taxes. If they do not indicate a preference, their education taxes are divided between the two systems. In many rural municipalities and small towns there are no "Separate" school boards. |
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2007 : 05:09:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by filthy
Would they now.... How exactly is the current system funding religion? As I recall, there are laws against that sort of thing, in this country, at least. |
I was talking about the Canadian system which funds catholic schools.
| And what of the children of the people who are living hand-to-mouth to start with? What "choice" would they have? |
As taxes would be less, and competition would reduce prices without a monopoly structure this would not be a concern for most. For those few that still needed assistance, government certainly could provide a program like "food stamps". Just because some people need food stamps does not mean that we force most to use food stamps.
| This conservative "voucher" bullshit is no more than another form of public funding with the bulk of the funds untimatly ending up in seclect schools approved by; guess who! |
Agreed, the voucher bullshit is only another angle of control. In fact this system will garner more power for government over currently private schools.
| Always, Jerome, look for who is grinding the axe because he is the one with the biggest stake in cutting the tree. |
Great phrase! The southern version of cui bono.
The American Public School system has performed quite well for a long time, in spite of the tampering of various political factions, most of whom represent fundamentalist Christians, who are pissed that they can't hold lock-step prayer meetings in science class and thus produce the sort of young ignoramous' that they so dote upon. We need to take the sleezy politics out of it and improve upon it, not throw away something that works.
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My argument would be that the system works to the benefit of the few at the harm of the many. Ever notice how few in congress send their children to public school?
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And have you ever noticed how many public school graduates go on to higher education and ultimatly into excellent positions in Academia and business? In a properly run school with qualified instructors, the many will suffer not at all. I do not mind paying taxes for the education of my grandchildren, who, incidently, are doing quite well in PS. Got a grandson playing football, the idiot, and another due to graduate HS this coming Spring.
I do not believe that taxes would lessen at all, quite the contrary when large sums are involved, nor that competition would improve education. Indeed, history tells us that competition is often the spur for corruption and I've no doubt that it would happen here, especally in some sort of educational "food stamp" program.
Education is too important to leave it up to business practices, which, as we all know, are invested only in the "bottom line" and cares not at all how that line is reached as long as the CEOs, et al., can stay out of jail in the process.
I think that you, like too many Libertarians, are desperatly looking for some sort of free lunch and think that taking government out of the equasion will provide it. It ain't on, bro, and never has been because business and corruption are far from mutually exclusive.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2007 : 07:09:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
And have you ever noticed how many public school graduates go on to higher education and ultimatly into excellent positions in Academia and business? In a properly run school with qualified instructors, the many will suffer not at all. I do not mind paying taxes for the education of my grandchildren, who, incidently, are doing quite well in PS. Got a grandson playing football, the idiot, and another due to graduate HS this coming Spring. |
To your first question; when you have a pool of the vast majority, of course many will achieve these positions. This has little to due with who is running the system. I have a sister in-law and a good friend that teach in the public school system. They both tell of how they are restricted in their ability to teach by the system to the detriment of the majority. The majority of learning; according to these insiders, is based on the lowest common denominator. They both work against the system to surreptitiously teach the children.
Ohh; football is a great sport to learn. Team work, extended effort, and most importantly learning to achieve immediately after failure.
| I do not believe that taxes would lessen at all, quite the contrary when large sums are involved, nor that competition would improve education. Indeed, history tells us that competition is often the spur for corruption and I've no doubt that it would happen here, especally in some sort of educational "food stamp" program. |
I agree that taxes would not lessen in reality. The money collected is the power of the politician and they are loath to relinquish power. I will disagree that competition is a spur for corruption. Certainly in any human endeavor there will be corruption. My point is that centralized power and the power of punishment shows that government corruption can and does do more harm than decentralized private corruption.
| Education is too important to leave it up to business practices, which, as we all know, are invested only in the "bottom line" and cares not at all how that line is reached as long as the CEOs, et al., can stay out of jail in the process. |
The bottom line in business is ultimately determined by the consumer desiring the product for sale. In my system the consumer that is not satisfied and move to another provider. In the current system the vast majority is stuck in the public system with little recourse to escape from corruption.
I think that you, like too many Libertarians, are desperatly looking for some sort of free lunch and think that taking government out of the equasion will provide it. It ain't on, bro, and never has been because business and corruption are far from mutually exclusive.
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I believe in paying for your own lunch. When the lunch is provided for you, you have little choice about what you will be eating. Besides, there is no free lunch; it must be taken from someone else. Again I agree that corruption will occur in any human system. I see throughout history that government corruption can and does cause the most harm to the most people.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2007 : 19:12:49 [Permalink]
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I didn't like this idea from the start, but the more I think about it the more of a nightmare it seems. Right now the Canadian Jewish Congress is happy, probably a lot of Christian groups are too, and no doubt more, but can you imagine the stink they will kick up if the Church of Satan decides to start a school? Or the World Church of the Creator, a notorious white-power racist and anti-semitic organization? What if the spoof religion, the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, decides that it wants to teach children the benefits of being 'touched by His noodly appendage'? Or Jedi Knights? Is the government going to start deciding what is and is not a religion? Does it go by numbers? Historical age? As far as I can see it will be forced to accept applications from anyone or start telling people whether their religion is legitimate or not. So now government is forced into the religion business, which it should be totally separate from.
And as numbers change constantly we will need a huge bureaucracy to determine, on a regular basis, how much funding is diverted to each group. Grandparents will need to be contacted to find out where they want their tax money to go. What if one agrees with their children's choice of the grand-children's school and one doesn't?
This gets smellier all the time.
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Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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Ontario may be in trouble...
