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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2007 :  06:33:39  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sam Harris says:

My concern with the use of the term “atheism” is both philosophical and strategic. I'm speaking from a somewhat unusual and perhaps paradoxical position because, while I am now one of the public voices of atheism, I never thought of myself as an atheist before being inducted to speak as one. I didn't even use the term in The End of Faith, which remains my most substantial criticism of religion. And, as I argued briefly in Letter to a Christian Nation, I think that “atheist” is a term that we do not need, in the same way that we don't need a word for someone who rejects astrology. We simply do not call people “non-astrologers.” All we need are words like “reason” and “evidence” and “common sense” and “bullshit” to put astrologers in their place, and so it could be with religion.


You know, I think there are some people who call themselves skeptics. Would that count? He also says there is no term for non-racist. Would civil rights activist count? Or the dozens of other labels like liberal this or liberal that or social this or social that, or progressive or leftist, or .....

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2007 :  06:43:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"Atheist" will do me fine. Anything but "Bright." Yech!


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2007 :  06:44:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
More discussion here

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2007 :  07:29:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"anuminist" is still taking members, that is those who are without religious or spiritual characteristics.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2007 :  07:31:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now I really disagree:
We should not call ourselves 'humanists,' or 'secular humanists,' or 'naturalists,' or 'skeptics,' or 'anti-theists,' or 'rationalists,' or 'freethinkers,' or 'brights.' We should not call ourselves anything. We should go under the radar -- for the rest of our lives. And while there, we should be decent, responsible people who destroy bad ideas wherever we find them."
A name defines us as what we do. In an era of massive theist dominance, it's realistic and practical to call ourselves atheists, as we're opposing theism.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Abdul Alhazred
Skeptic Friend

USA
58 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2007 :  07:33:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Abdul Alhazred's Homepage Send Abdul Alhazred a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Atheist == One who does not believe in God (or the gods).

"Bright" == There is not God, and we are his anointed.

The lack of a rational explanation is not evidence for an irrational explanation.
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2007 :  07:34:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Now I really disagree:
We should not call ourselves 'humanists,' or 'secular humanists,' or 'naturalists,' or 'skeptics,' or 'anti-theists,' or 'rationalists,' or 'freethinkers,' or 'brights.' We should not call ourselves anything. We should go under the radar -- for the rest of our lives. And while there, we should be decent, responsible people who destroy bad ideas wherever we find them."
A name defines us as what we do. In an era of massive theist dominance, it's realistic and practical to call ourselves atheists, as we're opposing theism.




Actually, aren't we really opposing fundamentalists/extremists? Are moderate theists a threat?

Perhaps we could be "afundies" or "aextremes".

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2007 :  08:03:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Godless, blasphemous, fucking heretic'll work for me -- after all, what's in a name?

"'Tis not the name of the rose that's worthy of note, but it's effect upon those who experience it." Dunno who said that. Mighta been me. Or not <shrug>...




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2007 :  08:04:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Anuminist.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2007 :  08:26:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Skeptic

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Edited by - Gorgo on 10/04/2007 08:29:44
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2007 :  08:32:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seems to me we miss the point if we come up with any word to describe ourselves based on Harris's argument.

I also think he is wrong.

Language happens. Whether we need the term or not, we are stuck with it. “Skeptic” is perfectly fine when regarding astrology. And “Atheist” or “Agnostic” have a meaning with regard to religion.

If he is suggesting that he doesn't want to self identify that way, I would say that he should not self identify that way. Who cares?

Okay, Sam is that guy who calls bullshit on religion. Whatever…


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2007 :  08:32:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The analogies suffer one fatal problem. There are not different types of "non-racists" or different types of people who don't believe in astrology. On the other hand, there are many types of disbelief in God. Atheist and agnostic are just two examples. Noncognitivists (I believe that is the proper name) believe the that term "God" just doesn't even make logical sense, let alone having a chance for existence. Freethinker is typically used to encapsulate anyone who does not let their religious views affect their political-social views. Then there of course is radical or militant atheists, and agnostic atheist. I seem to recall there being other kinds as well, but I can not remember at the moment.

In any case, we need the names to differentiate exactly how it is we disbelief, and to what degree we disbelieve in god.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2007 :  08:40:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Atheist is the only term you need for someone who lacks a belief in god.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Boron10
Religion Moderator

USA
1265 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2007 :  08:55:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Boron10 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Gorgo

You know, I think there are some people who call themselves skeptics. Would that count? He also says there is no term for non-racist. Would civil rights activist count? Or the dozens of other labels like liberal this or liberal that or social this or social that, or progressive or leftist, or .....
I would say, when racism was as dominant as religion is today, those "non-racists" were called "abolitionists."
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2007 :  09:33:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would say, when racism was as dominant as religion is today, those "non-racists" were called "abolitionists."


Well said, yes.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2007 :  10:00:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by pleco

Originally posted by HalfMooner

Now I really disagree:
We should not call ourselves 'humanists,' or 'secular humanists,' or 'naturalists,' or 'skeptics,' or 'anti-theists,' or 'rationalists,' or 'freethinkers,' or 'brights.' We should not call ourselves anything. We should go under the radar -- for the rest of our lives. And while there, we should be decent, responsible people who destroy bad ideas wherever we find them."
A name defines us as what we do. In an era of massive theist dominance, it's realistic and practical to call ourselves atheists, as we're opposing theism.




Actually, aren't we really opposing fundamentalists/extremists? Are moderate theists a threat?

Perhaps we could be "afundies" or "aextremes".
As far as being an atheist is concerned, the main thing is not accepting theism. Beyond that, one may or may not choose to actively oppose it. Or one might oppose or not oppose theists of all or certain stripes. I oppose theism rather than theists in general. Theism, even where it's not an active evil, undermines critical thinking, and makes people focus less upon their fellows.

By any other name, this rose. I suppose I oppose, if certain conditions arose, some fundy theist Joes. For those, them that truly blows, stomp on their toes, punch 'em in the nose.






Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/04/2007 10:05:15
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