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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
 Posted - 12/05/2007 : 06:31:53
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A couple items surfaced in the news lately. The Big One is that Iran stopped the secret research program in 2003. The Little One came out of the NPR debate yesterday afternoon. Hilary Clinton was challenged on her vote to declare Iran's Revolutionary Guard a Terrorist Organization.
First, it should be no surprise the Bush Administration's demonization of Iran has turned out to be poorly supported by actual facts. This is par for the course. And of course even though the main reasoning behing GW's saber rattling has been shown as bunk, he keeps spouting Danger! Danger! Danger! and declares his policy toward Iran will not change. At least he's consistant.
I recall thinking WTF when Hilary voted with the majority to declare a key piece of Iran's military a Terrrorist Organization. This declaration rolled up any assets in Iran even a little associated with the Revolutionary Guard under the Bush Administration's already loosely defined "War on Terror." It had the same feel as the now infamous 2002 vote to give GW permission to do whatever he felt like in Iraq. Needless to say I was extremely disappointed in her and I regard it as committing the same mistake twice.
Hopefully the revelation that the Bush Adminstration has been hyping the danger of Iran's nuclear program will make an attack on the country indefensible even for them. Any thoughts?
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-Chaloobi
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Edited by - chaloobi on 12/05/2007 07:17:56
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2007 : 08:36:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
A couple items surfaced in the news lately. The Big One is that Iran stopped the secret research program in 2003. The Little One came out of the NPR debate yesterday afternoon. Hilary Clinton was challenged on her vote to declare Iran's Revolutionary Guard a Terrorist Organization.
I recall thinking WTF when Hilary voted with the majority to declare a key piece of Iran's military a Terrrorist Organization. This declaration rolled up any assets in Iran even a little associated with the Revolutionary Guard under the Bush Administration's already loosely defined "War on Terror." It had the same feel as the now infamous 2002 vote to give GW permission to do whatever he felt like in Iraq. Needless to say I was extremely disappointed in her and I regard it as committing the same mistake twice.
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Hillary pretty much lost me when she co-sponsored a flag burning amendment.
Hillary Clinton Sponsors Anti-Flag Burning Amendment
I can't say that I will not vote for her in the presidential general election. But the amendment she sponsored, no doubt for political reasons, shows a shocking disregard for our first amendment right to free speech. In light of what she will do to garner conservative votes in a wrong-headed attempt to claim the middle, the above doesn't really surprise me.
As for GW, 13 months and counting... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2007 : 08:49:38 [Permalink]
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I hadn't heard of the anti flag burning legislation. That's ugly. No matter how you explain it, it says nothing good about her. Stupid stupid stupid.
EDIT: I went to the link you posted, where there's a poll on the general topic, and the majority has voted to protect the flag. Why are people so screwed in the head? |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 12/05/2007 08:52:32 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2007 : 08:58:22 [Permalink]
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If I have to pick betwixt Hillary and any Republican (or Ron Paul), then I'll vote for Hillary. But I won't like it.
I think I would prefer a Gore/Obama ticket over any other.
As for Bush and Iran, I think the Iran and the World know that Bush is mostly irrelevant as long as he doesn't start military action, and that the next administration will have a radically different view on a great many things. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 12/05/2007 09:27:04 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2007 : 09:26:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
I think I would prefer a Gore/Obama ticket over any other.
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Darn that Gore. I suspect that a reluctant candidate is just what we need. Someone sick of the dirtiness of politics at that level. He would also be the most qualified of all who are running. But he just doesn't want it. And I can understand. But Darn that Gore...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2007 : 10:22:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
If I have to pick betwixt Hillary and any Republican (or Ron Paul), then I'll vote for Hillary. But I won't like it.
I think I would prefer a Gore/Obama ticket over any other.
As for Bush and Iran, I think the Iran and the World know that Bush is mostly irrelevant as long as he doesn't start military action, and that the next administration will have a radically different view on a great many things.
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But the scary thing about Bush is he isn't afraid to start a war for no good reason. |
-Chaloobi
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2007 : 10:24:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by pleco
I think I would prefer a Gore/Obama ticket over any other.
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Darn that Gore. I suspect that a reluctant candidate is just what we need. Someone sick of the dirtiness of politics at that level. He would also be the most qualified of all who are running. But he just doesn't want it. And I can understand. But Darn that Gore...
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I think he wants it and I think if Hilary wasn't running, he'd go for it. But methinks the powers of the democratic party have decided it's hilary's turn. That's just fanciful speculation with nothing substantial behind it, but...
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-Chaloobi
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2007 : 10:53:09 [Permalink]
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Well, look. The vote was not the smartest move she made. But her defense should be "I can only vote on things based on the information I have" and stress the obvious point that Bush and his administration have been lying about Iran for months if not more.
Which is the real point.
Bush's line that he knew of the news, but didn't know what is was is so utterly absurd that I can't believe his handlers even let him use it.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2007 : 11:32:53 [Permalink]
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No, the point is that she voted to define the military of a nation as a "terrorist organization".
Doesn't matter what the info she had at the time was, it was an irresponsible and stupid thing to do.
Because we can now just declare anyone who opposes us to be terrorists, suspend all of the hard-won laws of the Geneva Conventions and our own constitution, then kill/torture whomever we feel like killing or torturing.
And no, that isn't really slippery-slope thinking. Why did they vote to declare Iran's military a terrorist organization? So they could attack them and be able to claim they are fighting terrorists instead of the army of another nation.
If Hillary is the candidate, then I may just have to sit this election out. I can't vote for a republican (except maybe Ron Paul), and I really don't want to vote for Hillary. The only way I will go vote for her is if the race looks like it will be close. I'll definitely be going to the dem primaries this year and voting against her, probably vote for Biden or Obama.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2007 : 19:22:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
No, the point is that she voted to define the military of a nation as a "terrorist organization".
Doesn't matter what the info she had at the time was, it was an irresponsible and stupid thing to do.
Because we can now just declare anyone who opposes us to be terrorists, suspend all of the hard-won laws of the Geneva Conventions and our own constitution, then kill/torture whomever we feel like killing or torturing.
And no, that isn't really slippery-slope thinking. Why did they vote to declare Iran's military a terrorist organization? So they could attack them and be able to claim they are fighting terrorists instead of the army of another nation.
If Hillary is the candidate, then I may just have to sit this election out. I can't vote for a republican (except maybe Ron Paul), and I really don't want to vote for Hillary. The only way I will go vote for her is if the race looks like it will be close. I'll definitely be going to the dem primaries this year and voting against her, probably vote for Biden or Obama.
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And this perfectly illustrates what poor shape the American 'democracy' is in. You get a choice between two not so different parties and if you don't care for the candidate of the party that vaguely resembles what you believe in, your next best choice is to sit it out. WTF??? |
-Chaloobi
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2007 : 20:49:55 [Permalink]
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chaloobi said:
| And this perfectly illustrates what poor shape the American 'democracy' is in. You get a choice between two not so different parties and if you don't care for the candidate of the party that vaguely resembles what you believe in, your next best choice is to sit it out. WTF??? |
I've never sat out an election since I was old enough to vote. This is the first tie I've considered it.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2007 : 03:30:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
chaloobi said:
| And this perfectly illustrates what poor shape the American 'democracy' is in. You get a choice between two not so different parties and if you don't care for the candidate of the party that vaguely resembles what you believe in, your next best choice is to sit it out. WTF??? |
I've never sat out an election since I was old enough to vote. This is the first tie I've considered it.
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Our democracy is ill nonetheless. |
-Chaloobi
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
 Posted - 12/06/2007 : 09:34:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by Dude
chaloobi said:
| And this perfectly illustrates what poor shape the American 'democracy' is in. You get a choice between two not so different parties and if you don't care for the candidate of the party that vaguely resembles what you believe in, your next best choice is to sit it out. WTF??? |
I've never sat out an election since I was old enough to vote. This is the first tie I've considered it.
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Our democracy is ill nonetheless.
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Yes, gone are the good ol' days when the standard bearer of the party was chosen behind closed doors in smoke filled rooms at national conventions by a few party big wigs after making deals…
The good ol' days of honest electioneering probably never existed. But gosh darn it, those elections were a lot more fun…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2007 : 10:24:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by Dude
chaloobi said:
| And this perfectly illustrates what poor shape the American 'democracy' is in. You get a choice between two not so different parties and if you don't care for the candidate of the party that vaguely resembles what you believe in, your next best choice is to sit it out. WTF??? |
I've never sat out an election since I was old enough to vote. This is the first tie I've considered it.
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Our democracy is ill nonetheless.
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Yes, gone are the good ol' days when the standard bearer of the party was chosen behind closed doors in smoke filled rooms at national conventions by a few party big wigs after making deals…
The good ol' days of honest electioneering probably never existed. But gosh darn it, those elections were a lot more fun…
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While I'm a big fan of sarcasm, even out-of-left-field sarcasm like this, I still believe our election system needs some serious reform. And it doesn't matter if it was worse at some time in the past; in the present, it needs reform. |
-Chaloobi
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2007 : 10:56:17 [Permalink]
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I think Kil was kidding, but I agree with Chaloobi here. I don't care what the founders wanted, I don't care what we used to do. What's best now? We can do better than what we have, and I am starting to think that we only legitimize a corrupt system by continuing to vote.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 12/06/2007 10:59:36 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2007 : 17:53:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by Dude
chaloobi said:
| And this perfectly illustrates what poor shape the American 'democracy' is in. You get a choice between two not so different parties and if you don't care for the candidate of the party that vaguely resembles what you believe in, your next best choice is to sit it out. WTF??? |
I've never sat out an election since I was old enough to vote. This is the first tie I've considered it.
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Our democracy is ill nonetheless.
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Yes, gone are the good ol' days when the standard bearer of the party was chosen behind closed doors in smoke filled rooms at national conventions by a few party big wigs after making deals…
The good ol' days of honest electioneering probably never existed. But gosh darn it, those elections were a lot more fun…
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While I'm a big fan of sarcasm, even out-of-left-field sarcasm like this, I still believe our election system needs some serious reform. And it doesn't matter if it was worse at some time in the past; in the present, it needs reform.
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Oh, I agree. Just thought I would point out that our democracy has probably never risen to anything even remotely close to, well, what our romanticized version of a democracy is.
Not saying that you have romanticized the past as much as I just followed my thoughts on the subject however sarcastically put they were... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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About Iran, Hilary Clinton, and Nuclear Weapons
