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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
 Posted - 12/06/2007 : 12:37:54
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source
Romney said religion is essential to freedom, without pointing to any specific faith.
"Freedom requires religion, just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone," the GOP contender said.
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Romney said he thought some have taken the idea of separation of church and state beyond its original meaning by trying to remove any acknowledgment of God from the public arena.
"It is as if they are intent on establishing a new religion in America -- the religion of secularism. They are wrong," he said. |
edited to fix subject -- Cuneifomist
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Edited by - Cuneiformist on 12/06/2007 13:21:46
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2007 : 19:07:14 [Permalink]
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I would say that indeed Romney's second statement, the religion requires freedom, is at least partially correct. But after using freedom to gain power, religion has a nasty habit of often then destroying freedom, like a despot who is democratically elected, then jails all his political foes.
You know how else used freedom that way, right?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2007 : 19:40:23 [Permalink]
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Hell, all the candidates are trying to out god one another. Who knew that early in the 21st century that Jimmy Carter would be a voice of reason for the separation of church and state.
"There has been, indeed, a disturbing trend toward fundamentalism in recent years, among political leaders and within major religious groups both abroad and in our country, and they have become increasingly intertwined." -- Our Endangered Values, p. 31, 2005
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edited to fix links |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 12/06/2007 19:41:05 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2007 : 20:19:20 [Permalink]
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I listened to exerpts all day on NPR and felt utter disgust and exclusion. This blog post from Democrat Dad sums up a lot of my feelings: http://www.democratdad.com/my_weblog/2007/12/an-atheist-repo.html
It has upset me a great deal that people in the freethought community such as the infamous Sam Harris have decided to put a spotlight on Romney's Mormonism and say this is a reason to not vote for the man. Given that Romney never talks about it publicly and his political record shows that his Mormonism play no role in his policy making and advocating, his Mormonism is irrelevant and it is just as bigoted when non-theists use it as when evangelicals use it against him. There is no evidence that someone's personal religious affiliation automatically makes them behave in a particular way as a politician, which is why our wise founding fathers opted for freedom of religion. When Romney has articulately responded to this unjust attacks on him, I have cheered, such as when he says things like this:
| If I am fortunate to become your president, I will serve no one religion, no one group, no one cause and no one interest. A president must serve only the common cause of the people of the United States. |
| There are some who would have a presidential candidate describe and explain his church's distinctive doctrines. To do so would enable the very religious test the founders prohibited in the Constitution. |
Of course Romney is nothing but a big fat hypocrite. He says such lovely things about freedom and pluralism only so far as it extends to his minority worldview. And the assholes in the mainstream media (including NPR) apparently don't find it important to bring it up that the guy is blatantly excluding the huge chunk of the American population that ascribes to no faith or religion.
The scariest thing in his speech to me was this: | But in recent years, the notion of the separation of church and state has been taken by some well beyond its original meaning. They seek to remove from the public domain any acknowledgment of God. Religion is seen as merely a private affair with no place in public life. It's as if they are intent on establishing a new religion in America - the religion of secularism. |
This is right out of the fundamentalist hand book, except he said "secularism" instead of "secular humanism". Given that that religion of secularism is an oxymoron when "secularism" is used in the political context, we must then assume that Romney is using "secularism" in the sense of a personal worldview. In other words, he is using it as a euphemism for "atheism and agnosticism" while at the same time perpetuating the public misunderstanding about what secular government (government which is neutral toward all belief systems of private communities and individuals) actually is. He is doing quite a fancy bit of doubletalk in an attempt to sound good to everyone. I hope people on both sides see right through his bullshit.
Romney isn't unfit to be President 'cause he's a Mormon. He's unfit because he's a slick liar willing to bend or break whatever principles he claims to have if it will benefit his political career. In other words, he's too much of a politician and nuthin' else. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 12/06/2007 20:22:20 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 05:10:16 [Permalink]
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Romney is unfit to be President because he's a fundy. I don't care if a candidate's religion was made up wholecloth in the 19th Century, or in 2,000 BCE. Mormonism is definitely stranger than most religions, but strangeness isn't the problem.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 12/08/2007 : 06:39:27 [Permalink]
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What's particularly goofy about Romney's assertion is how even a cursory understanding of human history shows how demonstrably false it is. From the dawn of history, it is clear that humans were religious. Yet no sane person would claim that an ancient Egyptian or Mesopotamian lived in a "free" society. So his assertion that "religion requires freedom" doesn't hold up.
Moreover, while I'm not an expert, it seems to me that however we define "freedom", it is going to have some grounding in the Age of Enlightenment. And if I'm not mistaken, the Age of Enlightenment certainly wasn't about religion. Indeed, it was quite the opposite!
And yet I'm sure there is some not insignificant segment of society that just nodded their heard head and thought, "Yup-- this country's most prized quality, Freedom, requires the thing I most strongly identify with, Religion. Sounds about right." |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2007 : 08:24:36 [Permalink]
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I bet he was referring to just non-Catholic Christ-based Religion for White People.  |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 12/08/2007 08:25:49 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2007 : 10:52:46 [Permalink]
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This from The LA Times:
Media prey on wrong question
| One of the suspicions Romney was forced to address was the notion that, as a Mormon chief executive, he would be compelled to accept direction from his church's leaders, even if it means acting in ways contrary to the nation's interest. In other words, some ancient Mormon elder in Salt Lake City is going to pick up the telephone and order President Romney to do something kooky. Huckabee, by contrast, already believes kooky things for religious reasons -- in things like creationism, which he thinks should be taught in the public schools. Doesn't anybody thing it's worth asking whether a nation fighting to remain technologically competitive can afford a president who -- for religious reasons -- wants to encourage as many children as possible to join him in scientific illiteracy? |
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2007 : 14:18:33 [Permalink]
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Romney gets Hitch-Slapped.
Hitch-Slapped.... I crack myself up.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2007 : 00:38:50 [Permalink]
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Halfmooner wrote: | Romney is unfit to be President because he's a fundy. |
Romney is not a fundamentalist. He is very religious, and he seems to let his religious beliefs in some cases influence policy making (although a lot of this is arguable political pandering) but to call him a fundamentalist waters down the meaning of fundamentalism. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 12/09/2007 : 08:39:01 [Permalink]
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It becomes more amusing every day. All of the Republican candidates, none of whom are qualified due to ethics problems which include outright & blatant lying, are trying to out-God each other. Do they not realize that God is not a registered voter and has no say in the outcome of any election, anywhere? They might as well be sucking up to the Hypnotoad
Perhaps they already are.
The Religious Right has been called now-superfluous but they are not. They remain a political power to be reckoned with, albeit a tad fragmented these days. But they will come together to support The Candidate when the time comes, however, the rat turd in that sugar bowl is that their extreme views & rethoric has turned off a lot of more moderate believers who just might vote Dem, 3rd party, or stay home.
This coming election is going to be a beautiful blood-bath.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular
USA
529 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2007 : 15:04:10 [Permalink]
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YO: Can't let this thread slip by.
This is a quote from the first posting of the thread:
"Freedom requires religion, just as religion requires freedom."
In order for me to feel free, I DON'T need religion. But Writ Nom'na'ly of Massachusetts might.
In order for a religion to take root and nurture (as with the early Christians whom the Romans, in their love of 'sport,' fed to lions), LACK of freedom is required. Those ninkinpoop Romans, the more they tried to keep the early Christians down, the more the downtrodden rebels, who better understood the actual teachings of Jesus, rose up
---much UNLIKE folks George W. Bush claims are getting their freedom given to them by his Administration.
Spreading 'democracy' is like proselytizing Christianism---that being what, unfortunately, is called Christianity nowadays.
Democracy is taken---not given.
OY Vey!
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"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith
If dogs run free
Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
--Bob Dylan
The neo-cons have gotten welfare for themselves down to a fine art.
--me
"The meek shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights."
--J. Paul Getty
"The great thing about Art isn't what it give us, but what we become through it."
--Oscar Wilde
"We have Art in order not to die of life."
--Albert Camus
"I cling like a miser to the freedom I lose when surrounded by an abundance of things."
--Albert Camus
"Experience is the name so many people give to their mistakes."
--Oscar Wilde |
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Romney - Freedom Requires Religion
