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 H. Res. 847: Recognizing Christmas and Christians
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2007 :  22:29:02  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If this gives special rights and/or privileges to Christianity, then it is a blatant violation of the Constitution. And if it does not, what is the point? Very stupid.

Passed the house, on to the Senate...

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=hr110-847

"Resolved, That the House of Representatives--

(1) recognizes the Christian faith as one of the great religions of the world;

(2) expresses continued support for Christians in the United States and worldwide;

(3) acknowledges the international religious and historical importance of Christmas and the Christian faith;

(4) acknowledges and supports the role played by Christians and Christianity in the founding of the United States and in the formation of the western civilization;

(5) rejects bigotry and persecution directed against Christians, both in the United States and worldwide; and

(6) expresses its deepest respect to American Christians and Christians throughout the world."



"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com


Edited by - marfknox on 12/13/2007 22:29:21

H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2007 :  22:37:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by marfknox
And if it does not, what is the point?
Votes.

Very stupid.
Not if you're an immoral politician pandering to an intellectually impoverished Christian demographic that likes to think of itself as "oppressed" and which is desperately seeking men in power who aren't afraid to stand up and "speak the truth." Then it makes perfect sense.

It's still a sickeningly cheap stunt, but its not illegal, since they aren't passing a law. It's equivalent to passing a motion recognizing that puppies are cute. Utterly inane and a waste of time, but no lawmaker in his right mind wants to be remembered as the politician who voted against cute puppies.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 12/13/2007 22:41:41
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2007 :  22:42:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Originally posted by marfknox
And if it does not, what is the point?
Votes.

Very stupid.
Not if you're an immoral politician pandering to an intellectually impoverished Christian demographic that likes to think of itself as "oppressed" and which is desperately seeking men in power who aren't afraid to stand up and "speak the truth." Then it makes perfect sense.

It's still a sickeningly cheap stunt, but its not illegal, since they aren't passing a law. It's equivalent to passing a motion recognizing that puppies are cute. Utterly inane and a waste of time, but no lawmaker in his right mind wants to be remembered as the politician who voted against cute puppies.


Amen.

ETA: I just wrote my rep to ask Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot was he thinking...
Edited by - Cuneiformist on 12/13/2007 22:47:33
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2007 :  23:05:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
John McKay has a pretty good breakdown of the resolution's language:
In the fourth whereas (Christians identify themselves...), King apparently hopes to get a statement of faith into the congressional record. It actually makes no grammatic sense in the contest of the resolution. The whereas' are the reasons for the resolution. The first three make logical sense (whereas there are lots of Christians in the country, we support one of their holidays). The fourth does only make sense as an effort to deny other religions the same support (whereas Christians believe in salvation through Christ, we support their holidays. If they didn't believe that, we wouldn't support them).

The next two whereas' are an effort to get congressional support for a watered down version of the Christian republic form of historical revisionism that is popular among the far Christian right and home-schooling crowd.

The eighth whereas (Christmas is celebrated as a recognition...) returns to trying to get Congress on record actually supporting articles of Christian dogma, not merely the observation of a holiday.

It's a real piece of work.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 12/13/2007 23:42:47
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2007 :  23:26:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They're doing this instead of fixing the AMT or passing needed funding bills?!?!?

Sixty co-sponsors?!?!?!?!?!?

I think we really need legislation to make these legislator's positions not paying jobs anymore.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2007 :  00:30:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My letter to my rep:


Re: H. Res. 847: Recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian faith

Congressman Waxman,

With all due respect, I just have to ask, what in the hell were you thinking when you voted for this?

Oh yes, we don't want to make the Christians angry. What we need to do is give this most maligned vast majority of Americans almost official recognition as the religion of America, however benignly put was the wording.

And, of course, who would want to be accused of being anti Christian by Congressman King on Fox News?

I am not anti Christian. But I am certainly anti any bill that brings us closer to a theocracy in America, which is the agenda of certain Christian fundamentalists. It saddens me that this bill made it to the floor, and even more so that my representative voted for it.

Sincerely,

David Glück


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2007 :  04:43:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Grandstanding as well as the usual pandering by political hacks. I seem to recall, some years back, when almost the entire Congress came out of their holes and recited the Pledge of Allegiance with a special emphasis on the "Under God" phrase.

The Christian fundies simply loved it! Falwell & Robertson almost crippled their hands afterward.




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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2007 :  04:47:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good idea, Kil! You inspired me to write my own letter to Fattah. I took some of your letter and some of this discussion and my own thought:

Congressman Fattah,

Regarding H. Res. 847: Recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian faith, with all due respect, I just have to ask, what were you thinking when you voted for this? That one religious group, which is already the vast majority, needed the government's special acknowledgement, support, and respect?

I am outraged at this waste of time and tax dollars, as well as this insult to non-Christian Americans. If this resolution is not meant to show official favoritism to Christianity, then it is pointless and a waste. The Congress might as well have spent its time on a resolution that puppies are cute. And if this resolution is meant to show official favoritism to Christianity, then it is out of line with the constitution and a kick in the teeth to all non-Christian Americans. I am especially outraged that specific Christian doctrine is cited as part of the reason for the resolution:

"Whereas Christians identify themselves as those who believe in the salvation from sin offered to them through the sacrifice of their savior, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and who, out of gratitude for the gift of salvation, commit themselves to living their lives in accordance with the teachings of the Holy Bible;"

So because Christians believe in Christ, the Congress supports a Christian holiday? It is one thing if Christmas is a federal holiday for practical matters, considering that the vast majority of Americans celebrate December 25th. It is another altogether if Christmas is being used to show government favoritism to one religion's beliefs over all other worldviews.

I am not anti-Christian. I am pro-religious freedom, and thus, I am against any bill that brings us closer to a theocracy in America, which is the agenda of certain Christian fundamentalists. It saddens me that this bill made it to the floor, and even more so that my representative voted for it.

Sincerely,

Martha Knox

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2007 :  09:10:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I received the usual generic reply. “Thanks for writing, the congressman is interested in your opinion, bla bla bla…" But this time I sent it back asking for something a bit more substantive. I doubt that I will get anything better, but hey, I would like someway of knowing that my letter wasn't just sent to the circular file…

I may keep pressing until I get a real response…

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2007 :  14:15:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Humbert.....

Your quote, my bolding.....
Not if you're an immoral politician pandering to an intellectually impoverished Christian demographic that likes to think of itself as "oppressed" and which is desperately seeking.....

As we didn't hear from you in a recent Religion topic, and your comment above is part of the warp and woof of that thread, I would be pleased to hear an expansion of your view of the general intelligence level of Christians in general - the "Christian demographic" as you succinctly put it.

Briefly, I don't understand the fairly frequent contradiction found in public and private life, of a well educated, literate, erudite person who professes a deep and abiding religious faith. I stated that I found myself questioning that person's intelligence, despite evidence to the contrary. Very strong exception to this incredulity of mine was expressed, together with some nonsense statements about supposed "correlations", one way or the other, between intelligence and religiosity.

Humbert, you speak well on many issues. What is your view on this topic?
Edited by - bngbuck on 12/14/2007 14:22:39
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Chippewa
SFN Regular

USA
1496 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2007 :  14:45:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Chippewa's Homepage Send Chippewa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Should have been something like...

"Resolved, That the House of Representatives--

(1) Recognizes America as a liberal democracy with legislation guided by the Constitution of the United States within the principals the separation of church and state;

(2) Expresses continued support for the Constitution of the United States and its influence worldwide;

(3) Acknowledges the international ramifications and historical importance of elected representatives upholding the Constitution of the United States;

(4) Acknowledges and supports the role played by free thought and equality in the founding of the United States and in the formation of the Western civilization;

(5) Rejects bigotry and persecution directed against anyone who may express opposing views or humanist ideas, both in the United States and worldwide;

(6) Expresses its deepest respect to free thinkers and liberals throughout the world.

(7) Resolves that violation of church and state separation in government for the hidden purpose of introducing theocratic rule and doctrines shall be subject to congressional censure, arrest and prosecution.

Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.

"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.)
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2007 :  15:35:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
bngbuck wrote:
As we didn't hear from you in a recent Religion topic, and your comment above is part of the warp and woof of that thread, I would be pleased to hear an expansion of your view of the general intelligence level of Christians in general - the "Christian demographic" as you succinctly put it.
As far as I can tell, Humbert didn't refer to the Christian demographic. He wrote "an intellectually impoverished Christian demographic", which I took to refer to certain (though they are a large percentage) Christians who tend to blindly go with what their hardline conservative leaders tell them, and the leaders tell them that they are oppressed. Ironically, the same leaders will often also claim that Christians are a vast majority in the USA. And how a vast majority which includes many powerful people in business and government can also be systematically oppressed, I don't know.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 12/14/2007 15:37:25
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2007 :  15:38:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Chippewa, very nice!

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2007 :  15:39:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kil, I always send hard copy letters through snail mail. I've heard that they have more impact than emails. So I likely won't hear back from Chaka Fattah for a few weeks. Good for you for demanding a more substantial reply!

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular

USA
529 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2007 :  18:47:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Orwellingly Yurz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
YO: Marfknox wrote this phrase...

"...which I took to refer to certain (though they are a large percentage) Christians who tend to blindly go with what their hard line conservative leaders tell them, and the leaders tell them that they are oppressed."

Orwellingly Yurz Sez:

Religious persons with an authoritarian bent feel 'safer' when they sense they're being controlled by some 'leader' or as they say in the German, 'fuhrer.'

When the 'fuhrer' tells the authoritarian followers or sheepeople that they're being oppressed, it gives der fuhrer more sway over them. They feel more safe with and dependent on der fuhrer, whatever religious construct is being employed. An authoritarian Jew, an authoritarian Christian, an authoritarian Muslin, for me, pretty much all fall into the same niche. That's why Netanyahu, Bush and Ahmadinejad are so much alike when I look at their body language and listen to their rhetoric.

Bush and so many other dictator-wannabees have been pulling this kind of shit since the Dawn of Time.

As we've been hearing so much lately, "All he has is Fear itself."

And to Chippy: a good alternative you've suggested for the congresspersons to ponder. I think they should now pass something that gives support to secular humanists, agnostics and atheists who are, as well, American citizens. And speaking of on what the US was founded: Google old Tom Paine and check out his religious pedigree.
Shazam! A Liberal and proud of it !

Finally, during a Christmas season week when the President of the United States of America has vetoed a bill that would allow funds to be appropriated for children's healthcare, I say that Congress really NEEDS to pass a resolution reaffirming Christmas. This nation needs all the help it can get with people in power like George War Bush.

OY Vey, but Merry Christmas, just the same.




"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith

If dogs run free
Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
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--me

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Edited by - Orwellingly Yurz on 12/14/2007 21:46:37
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