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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2009 :  19:44:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by pleco

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

—Isaiah 45:7
Awesome, pleco, that's what I was thinking of. Thanks.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Why not question something for a change?
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2009 :  20:37:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by pleco

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

—Isaiah 45:7
Awesome, pleco, that's what I was thinking of. Thanks.


From my search (because I couldn't remember the exact scripture) the apologist's reply is that for the word "evil" the Hebrew word "rah" is used here, and it can have different meanings, including illness, etc.

However, I think in the context, where the word "peace" is used, the word "evil" is very accurate, and makes perfect sense (biblically speaking).

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
Edited by - pleco on 02/15/2009 20:39:34
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2009 :  21:02:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by pleco

However, I think in the context, where the word "peace" is used, the word "evil" is very accurate, and makes perfect sense (biblically speaking).
Yeah, I agree. Especially in the additional context of "I ... create darkness" and "I do all these things." (If it weren't for being so absurd on its face, it would be creepy, like Charlie Manson bragging about how evil he is.)


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/15/2009 21:05:45
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2009 :  21:35:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

(If it weren't for being so absurd on its face, it would be creepy, like Charlie Manson bragging about how evil he is.)
Well, we're talking the Old Testament God, here, who was much more consistent than the New Testament God. I mean, if forced to choose between NT God and OT God, I'd pick OT without hesitation. The "I am love, but if you don't love me you'll burn in hell" thing is waaaay too codependent. Is it any wonder that lots of deeply devout Christians seem to express beaten-wife syndrome? God only does bad things to them (or fails to do good things for/to them) because they deserve it, after all.

With the OT God, however, one never really knew where one stood with Him unless He spoke to you, which didn't really matter because He never laid out a plan for the universe that anyone could follow, anyway. Sure, He was a totalitarian racist who condoned slavery and rape, hardened hearts, had a brutal sense of justice and would wipe out great swaths of people because He didn't like them, but He was at least up-front about His jealousy and anger issues.

I'll pick an honest and open bully over a needy, dishonest, codependent bully any day.

Assuming, of course, that the Bible isn't the work of Satan...

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2009 :  08:43:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.
Assuming, of course, that the Bible isn't the work of Satan...


And that's a BIG assumption....

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular

USA
1191 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2009 :  18:26:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send R.Wreck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Randy

Dangnation, R.Wreck...your hell synopsis (pretty well spot-on for me) truly reads like some bizzaro Sci-Fi DC comic book. Dunno...mass appeal for this dogma bilge requires lazy thinking/ignorance/fear/appeal to popularity/etc.


I never really thought of it quite that way, but now that you mention it, the whole story does have about the same believability score as the Incredible Hulk. Fantasies like comic books and vengeful gods seem to have some powerful emotional appeal to a lot of people. I've never been a big fan of either. What I find especially creepy about this hell fixation though, is the apparent glee with which some of the loons sentence others to such a fate. I guess if you can't possess superpowers, you can pretend to be best buddies with the guy with the superest superpowers ever.

The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley

The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2009 :  18:38:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fundies as frustrated sidekicks? Sounds about right now that you mention it.

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2009 :  22:22:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Simon

Fundies as frustrated sidekicks? Sounds about right now that you mention it.
This relationship with Yahweh also reminds me of Jimmy Olsen's abused-spouse relationship with Superman, so well illustrated at the Superdickery site that Simon was so kind to acquaint me with.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/16/2009 22:22:32
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1888 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2009 :  05:18:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Doomar

Originally posted by moakley
A God as intelligent as your God is supposed to be should understand that a firm belief, to many, is a bad way to determine the validity of any assertion. And you have got me going to your religions hell. Well that's not very nice since it is your God's injustice of meting out punishment to good people whose only crime is not believing in him. The heck with that, I believe that your God is going to the hell of a more power God for its heinous acts of punishing good people.

The assumption that you or anyone else is good in the sight of God is a bad one.
That is only due to the fact that the sight of God is totally dependent on the beliefs of man.
Originally posted by Doomar

Have you read the ten commandments? By your own admission you not only don't believe in God, but you condemn Him and think you are better than He. That would make you a violator of several of the first few commandments.
Oh you mean the ones that establish your God as incredibly insecure and vane, who resorts to threats rather than intellectual persuasion. That might have been a significant argument had I considered more than 4 of any value. What I condemn is the wrong thinking that god beliefs encourage and the need the faithful have to infect others.
Originally posted by Doomar

God justifies even the sinful man who believes in Him. His standard for fallen man is not perfect behavior, but faith. "being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1
It is sad to see you harden your heart. Humility is far more virtuous and necessary than you think. Next step: abasement.
More bible verses, more nonsense. Doomar you have yet to establish your God as anything outside of your imagination. You ignore all the salient points and continue with your witnessing.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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Doomar
SFN Regular

USA
714 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2009 :  21:44:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Doomar's Homepage Send Doomar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

God created Satan with the capacity to do evil. Evil as a concept must have existed prior to Satan's creation. God could have created a universe in which no being had the capability to do evil, but He chose not to. God must have created evil, even if He did not (and does not) ever do anything evil.

You seem to be hung up on the point that God is responsible for evil because He made beings with freedom of choice. Do we blame the mother who gave birth to a son who grows up and murders someone, or do we hold the murderer accountable?

Face it, Doomar, you're just looking for someone else to blame for the bad things which happen. However, God says that He is as responsible for the evil in the world as He is for the good.

Not so. James 1:13 - 15 (KJV) 13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Satan, never having been a man, had no free will. And God created Satan with full knowledge of what Satan would do, so God bears full responsibility for all of Satan's actions.

Again, not true. Angels are created beings with the ability to choose just like man. Satan was one of the most powerful angels who thought he should be equal with God and rebelled against God along with a third of heaven's angels. They were cast out of heaven. The reason there is no redemption for them is they saw God and knew of His great goodness and still chose rebellion.

Those Commandments put the lie to the idea that God is the most humble being in the universe, don't they?

If you mean the command to worship the Lord God alone, not at all. Who are we to praise and give thanks for all the good things we have? Ourselves? Some false god that doesn't exist? Do we thank "mother nature" or our "monkey parents" if we're evolutionists? Or should we just be thankless, emotionless, stoics? James 1:17 - 18 (KJV) 17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Psalms 150:6 (KJV) 6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.

You stand so [i]much
in judgement on these questions that you think that those who don't agree with you will be eternally punished.

Dave, I think we should clarify the meaning of judgment as opposed to its cousin discernment. The judgment that is evil that Jesus talks about (judge not that you be not judged) refers to a final condemnation of another human being. For example, the phrase, "To hell with you!" It describes a hateful condemnation of another human being, wanting them to receive eternal punishment for what they've done. It is the ultimate hatred or despising of another.

It should not be confused with discernment or evaluation of another person's state. For example: "Dave, I perceive that you're an unbeliever and according to the Scriptures, you are headed for hell." By my understanding, that is a fact, but it is not my desire that you end up in hell. That's one of the main reasons I started this thread, to warn others about that place, why people go there, and how to escape it.

It's true that I've "judged" the Bible to be true and God to be true, in that I've "discerned" it to be true. I don't presume any more to judge the Lord and His acts as written in the Bible. I don't understand all His judgments.

An evil "judgment" of the Bible and the Lord God is when a person presumptuously sits in judgment of God's acts instead of attempting to understand them or defer judgment till they learn more or just leave it alone as something out of their league, especially when they are not even attempting to follow the precepts of the Scriptures.


You're not making the mistake of thinking that atheists "hate" God, are you?

Many atheists hate people who believe in God. The Lord considers if they treat His brethren that way, they do it unto Him.




Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

www.pastorsb.com.htm
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2009 :  22:15:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Doomar

You seem to be hung up on the point that God is responsible for evil because He made beings with freedom of choice. Do we blame the mother who gave birth to a son who grows up and murders someone, or do we hold the murderer accountable?
No, I hold God responsible for evil because he created evil. Mothers rarely intend for their sons to be murderers, and don't have a choice in that matter, anyway.
Not so. James 1:13 - 15 (KJV) 13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
And God chose to build a universe in which temptation and sin were possible. Nobody forced Him to do so, but we're all forced to live with the consequences of His decisions.
Again, not true. Angels are created beings with the ability to choose just like man.
Where is your Biblical support for that assertion?
Satan was one of the most powerful angels who thought he should be equal with God and rebelled against God along with a third of heaven's angels. They were cast out of heaven. The reason there is no redemption for them is they saw God and knew of His great goodness and still chose rebellion.
None of which demonstrates that Satan could have chosen to not rebel. History is not an account of possibilities, it is a recital of actual events. Cite for me the chapter and verse which unequivacably shows that angels are given free will.
If you mean the command to worship the Lord God alone, not at all. Who are we to praise and give thanks for all the good things we have? Ourselves? Some false god that doesn't exist? Do we thank "mother nature" or our "monkey parents" if we're evolutionists? Or should we just be thankless, emotionless, stoics? James 1:17 - 18 (KJV) 17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Psalms 150:6 (KJV) 6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.
Any being who demands that He be worshipped is, by definition, not humble.
Dave, I think we should clarify the meaning of judgment as opposed to its cousin discernment. The judgment that is evil that Jesus talks about (judge not that you be not judged) refers to a final condemnation of another human being. For example, the phrase, "To hell with you!" It describes a hateful condemnation of another human being, wanting them to receive eternal punishment for what they've done. It is the ultimate hatred or despising of another.

It should not be confused with discernment or evaluation of another person's state. For example: "Dave, I perceive that you're an unbeliever and according to the Scriptures, you are headed for hell." By my understanding, that is a fact, but it is not my desire that you end up in hell. That's one of the main reasons I started this thread, to warn others about that place, why people go there, and how to escape it.

It's true that I've "judged" the Bible to be true and God to be true, in that I've "discerned" it to be true. I don't presume any more to judge the Lord and His acts as written in the Bible. I don't understand all His judgments.

An evil "judgment" of the Bible and the Lord God is when a person presumptuously sits in judgment of God's acts instead of attempting to understand them or defer judgment till they learn more or just leave it alone as something out of their league, especially when they are not even attempting to follow the precepts of the Scriptures.
Semantics, now. And a conflation of "final condemnation" with "desire." Nice.
Many atheists hate people who believe in God. The Lord considers if they treat His brethren that way, they do it unto Him.
Ah, so atheists' own thoughts must abide by your doctrine. God is a Though Cop, after all.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2009 :  00:34:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Doomar
Many atheists hate people who believe in God. The Lord considers if they treat His brethren that way, they do it unto Him.
Atheists don't hate the sinner, they hate the sin.

I mean "god-belief". Atheists hate "god-beliefs", not the believers.

Unless they are f-ing stupid and/or try to force their religion on Atheists.
Fred Phelps, Jerry Falwell (James Dobson?) are such people. Atheists only hate Christians who are threats to the freedom to be atheist.

Kent Hovind and Ray Comfort are too silly to be worthy of anything but pity.


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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2009 :  09:42:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I do intensely dislike Hovind and Comfort myself.
But that is because they are liars and hypocrites and that they keep insulting me at every turn (for being Atheist and for accepting the evidences concerning the theory of evolution).

On the other hand, I know plenty of Religious people for whom I have a tremendous level of respect. In fact, all my best friends are Christians...
I am not aware of a single atheist that hates Religious people based on just being religious. Surely, they exist, but I have never met one, or read the writings of one, or heard about one outside of the writings of Doomar.
Certainly, we disagree with Religious people and think they are wrong on this aspect of their beliefs, and certainly we refuse their right to impose what we consider their mistake on us, but we do not HATE religious people.

In fact... Let me get to Robb (a Religious person from these fora that I already mentioned liking) and give him a hug...



So, it is my impression that such an atheist would be extremely rare, certainly not warranting the expression: 'Many atheists hate people who believe in God'.
In fact, in my impression, that is the other way around with Christians regularly insulting atheists, often asserting that they have no morals.

This sentence really sounds like another expression of the persecution complex we sometime see in the religious right...

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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Doomar
SFN Regular

USA
714 Posts

Posted - 02/21/2009 :  16:49:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Doomar's Homepage Send Doomar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.


In studying the meaning of the Hebrew word translated as "evil," it can mean adversity, affliction, calamity. It is a misrepresentation of God to say that he makes "evil" in the sense of doing sinful acts or immoral deeds. James makes it clear that God does not do evil or temp anyone to do evil. It is also written that God is good, just, righteous, and God is love...all of which dispel the notion that God does wrong. However, you join the hyper-calvinists in claiming such a thing, which I condemn as heresy.

Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

www.pastorsb.com.htm
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 02/21/2009 :  17:18:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Doomar

Originally posted by Dave W.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.


In studying the meaning of the Hebrew word translated as "evil," it can mean adversity, affliction, calamity. It is a misrepresentation of God to say that he makes "evil" in the sense of doing sinful acts or immoral deeds. James makes it clear that God does not do evil or temp anyone to do evil. It is also written that God is good, just, righteous, and God is love...all of which dispel the notion that God does wrong. However, you join the hyper-calvinists in claiming such a thing, which I condemn as heresy.


Can I count this as points in the Psychic contest?

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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