Skeptic Friends Network

Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?
Home | Forums | Active Topics | Active Polls | Register | FAQ | Contact Us  
  Connect: Chat | SFN Messenger | Buddy List | Members
Personalize: Profile | My Page | Forum Bookmarks  
 All Forums
 Our Skeptic Forums
 Social Issues
 The ol' "gay, straight, or bi"
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 2

the seeker
New Member

USA
14 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2008 :  17:51:29  Show Profile Send the seeker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, what do you guys think...are people born gay, straight, or bisexual?

There have been research on both sides, yet no true, decided answer.

What I think is that it is a CHOICE, unless you have so much (insert hormones of the opposite sex here) in your body that you cant help but to think like the opposite sex, act and talk like the oppsite sex, and be attracted to what the opposite sex is attracted to. It's not that they're JUST attracted to the same sex, it's that they feel like a female in a male's body and via versa. This mostly happens in guys, though, hence metrosexuals and whatnot. Except metrosexuals to me, is proof that it is still a CHOICE, because although they act completely feminine, they can still choose to like the opposite sex.

I see a lot of artists turning bisexual and experimenting. I think that it is partially part of the indigo personality, along with being accused of having/diagnoses with ADHD and whatnot.

Before I thought that homosexuality and bisexuality were just mental disorders--but now I just think that it's a PREFERENCE. Also, often times, libido seems to have a lot of influence. A lot of nymphomaniacs seem to enjoy sexual contact with both sexes.

Sorry if I didn't do any research for this and I sound rather ignorant, but I was just stating my own theory/opinion.

What do you think?

My signature consists of my not having a signature.

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2008 :  18:23:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh hell, seeker, everybody's gay. You're gay, I'm gay, Pat Robertson's gay, Fred Phelps is a flaming closet-faggot, Jesus was gay, the SFN moderators are all gay; everybody's gay. We're all a bunch of queers, it's just a matter of degree.

Don't recall where I found that, but I've been waiting a right good while for the excuse to use it.....

Thanks!




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Go to Top of Page

Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2008 :  19:05:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I very much doubt that being gay is a matter of choice. It might be in some cases, but mostly no.

I'll use myself as an example. Outside of some very extreme situation, like prison maybe, where any port in a storm may do, I don't think a hairy mans ass could turn me on. On the other hand, I am very fond of and attracted to a shapely womans ass. I didn't choose to be heterosexual. I just apparently am.

And if I could choose to be gay, I would also be choosing to live a much more difficult life in terms of societal acceptance. Plus, some crazy homophobe just might want to beat the crap out of me for no reason other than I am gay. So I would also be choosing a certain amount of danger, discrimination, and whatever other hassles being gay would cause me. Why on earth would I do that to myself if I could simply choose not to? But then, I don't think it really is a choice.

Homosexuality is not a mental disorder. It has been removed from the DSM because scientifically anyhow, we live in more enlightened times.

Also, it's rather common in the animal kingdom. And we are animals after all…

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
Go to Top of Page

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2008 :  19:16:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's nothing conclusive yet, that I've been able to find anyway, but more and more studies are finding a pretty complicated, genetic cause for homosexuality.
Italian geneticists may have explained how genes apparently linked to male homosexuality survive, despite gay men seldom having children. Their findings also undermine the theory of a single “gay gene”.

The researchers discovered that women tend to have more children when they inherit the same - as yet unidentified - genetic factors linked to homosexuality in men. This fertility boost more than compensates for the lack of offspring fathered by gay men, and keeps the “gay” genetic factors in circulation.

The findings represent the best explanation yet for the Darwinian paradox presented by homosexuality: it is a genetic dead-end, yet the trait persists generation after generation.

“We have finally solved this paradox,” says Andrea Camperio-Ciani of the University of Padua. “The same factor that influences sexual orientation in males promotes higher fecundity in females.”





"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Go to Top of Page

bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2008 :  19:52:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seeker.....

The question you raise remains partially unanswered in the 21st century, but evidence is accruing. For example:
"The American Academy of Pediatrics has stated, "Sexual orientation probably is not determined by any one factor but by a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences."[76] The American Psychological Association has stated that "there are probably many reasons for a person's sexual orientation and the reasons may be different for different people". However, it states that for most people, sexual orientation is determined at an early age.[77]

The degree to which sexual orientation is determined by genetic or other prenatal factors plays a role in political and social debates about homosexuality, and also raises fears about genetic profiling and prenatal testing.[78] The American Psychiatric Association has stated "To date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality. Similarly, no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse.[79]"

Link Wiki Homosexuality

The "nature vs. nurture" argument has raged for years, but the scales seem to be tipping conclusively toward the nature side in recent years. Evidence is accumulating that biological, i.e. genetic, factors are dominant in determining sexual orientation.

As you are undoubtedly aware, fundamentalist Christian religion has largely held to the view that homosexuality is a learned life-style and that homosexuals can be "cured" by conversion to bible-thumping Christianity. This dogmatic assertion has played large in Republican politics in recent years, and seems certain to be a factor in the '08 elections. Scientific research seems to suggest otherwise:
Researchers have found that Childhood Gender Nonconformity to be the largest predictor of homosexuality in adulthood.[117] Daryl Bem's Exotic Becomes Erotic theory theorizes that some children will prefer activities that are typical of the other sex and that this will make a gender-conforming child feel different from opposite-sex children, while gender-nonconforming children will feel different from children of their own sex, which may evoke physiological arousal when the child is near members of the sex which it considers as being "different", which will later be transformed into sexual arousal. Researchers have suggested that this nonconformity may be a result of genetics, prenatal hormones, personality, parental care or other environmental factors.
You state:
What I think is that it is a CHOICE,...
and
Before I thought that homosexuality and bisexuality were just mental disorders--but now I just think that it's a PREFERENCE.
Evidence is rapidly emerging that would contradict those views.

It has been well established for many years that there are varying degrees of feminine and masculine traits in most, if not all, humans. Homosexuality is very probably primarily a genetic condition that is enhanced or retarded by environmental factors. For example:
The American Psychiatric Association has stated “some people believe that sexual orientation is innate and fixed; however, sexual orientation develops across a person's lifetime.” In combination with other major American medical organizati
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2008 :  20:30:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by the seeker

There have been research on both sides, yet no true, decided answer.

What I think is that it is a CHOICE...
The research has been on whether genes or environment are stronger determiners of sexual orientation, not on whether it's a "choice" or not.

If you think it's a decision a person consciously makes, then go ahead and run the experiment on yourself: choose to have a different sexual preference than you do now. Also report back on whether you were able to find your current preference distasteful (a turn off).

I think you'll find you'll be as successful at that as you would be if you were to try to choose to be nauseated by your favorite food.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
Go to Top of Page

HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2008 :  22:59:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think there's probably a minority of bisexuals for whom active sexual orientation is a conscious option. I think practically nobody else has any choice in the matter. Sexual orientation (including that which allows a few people to choose) is probably hardwired into our brains at a very early age.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Go to Top of Page

just_some_guy
New Member

19 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2008 :  23:02:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send just_some_guy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, what do you guys think...are people born gay, straight, or bisexual?
none of the above, however I think people are born sexual( if im not mistaken there have been ultrasounds and various observations of 'masturbation' by the unborn), but I believe preference is a mix of learned, innate and a decision of what can/will be tolerated in a given society.

The question of human sexuality when it comes to anything, including such topics as gay/bi/straight or the degrees within would make for a very difficult task of saying any one thing made a person a ‘such and such' preference.

Religions of all types have been quick to make laws about sexual taboos just like they have of food or for that matter anything else. You as a person have to step outside of what is the social norms or taboos and judge for yourself; do I agree with this behavior? Does this behavior hurt any one but the parties involved? If this behavior neither is hurting me or a even a 3rd party why should I even care?

If you really want to know for academic reasons I say go with it, get involved in the field of human sexuality, from what I have come across its endless hours of great reading. However, if one is looking for cause and effect with simple matter of explanation( I should have thrown the football to lil Johny more cause if I did he would not have been gay) then you will be sorely disappointed .

What turns a person on is as much regulated by their genes as it by their environment as it is their upbringing and what is or is not considered taboo in their culture of influence. It is a complex formula with a lot a varying outcomes.


But then again, wtf do I know.






Edited by - just_some_guy on 01/26/2008 23:06:58
Go to Top of Page

Maverick
Skeptic Friend

Sweden
385 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2008 :  00:34:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Maverick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's not a choice. In many cultures it's still considered wrong and sinful, so why would people choose that, if it really was a free choice that could go either way?

But let's say it is a choice. Let's say that when you, for the first time, feel some sort of attraction towards someone, it's because the day before that, you made a choice. How did this happen? Were you approached by one of the gods/godesses of love, perhaps, who offered you to be completely straight, completely gay or a little bit of both? When was that choice made, and how, and where?

And really, what made you choose A rather than B? It's obvious that you would choose whatever appeals to you the most, which means much if not all of the choice was already made for you.

"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan
Go to Top of Page

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2008 :  04:20:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To anyone who thinks it's a choice, I might remind: In the mid-east, they often hang homosexuals. And yet, there are plenty of homosexuals in barbaric Islam.

Don't be put off though; the Judeo/Christian barbarians used to do the same & even worse, and would again, given the opportunity.
As the middle ages progressed, homosexuality and sodomy began to be considered as more of a secular and judicial problem than a religious one. Accordingly, there were laws against homosexual acts and sodomy, with associated punishments. These varied depending on where in Europe the offences occurred and whether it was habitual or not. For example, from about 1250, death was the punishment for male homosexuality in much of Spain, France and many of the Italian cities. It usually followed torture or castration. After 1300, male homosexuality was a capital crime in more places than not.





"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Go to Top of Page

Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2008 :  10:59:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't like liver, tequila, eggs, or raw onions. Two of those things will make me instantly sick. I have no allergy or other reaction to them, just nausea.

I like to take a piece of bread loaded with peanutbutter and dunk it in my chilli. I like a sandwich with all this (raw raddishes, miracle whip, cheese, ham, rasberry jelly, and peanutbutter) on it at the same time.

There is no decision I can make, no choice involved, in my dislike of the first group of my liking the second group. It is a matter of my brain's perception of how things taste.

I have never made a choice to be heterosexual, but I am.

I have a news flash for anyone who thinks that sexual orientation is a "CHOICE": You are probably gay if you think you could make a choice to enjoy sex with the same sex.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
Go to Top of Page

the seeker
New Member

USA
14 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2008 :  12:24:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the seeker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't like liver, tequila, eggs, or raw onions. Two of those things will make me instantly sick. I have no allergy or other reaction to them, just nausea.

I like to take a piece of bread loaded with peanutbutter and dunk it in my chilli. I like a sandwich with all this (raw raddishes, miracle whip, cheese, ham, rasberry jelly, and peanutbutter) on it at the same time.

There is no decision I can make, no choice involved, in my dislike of the first group of my liking the second group. It is a matter of my brain's perception of how things taste


Yes, that's IT. It's all PERCEPTION. I had it in the back of my head, yet never said it. I believe that perception is an allusion, along with human emotions and such. I'm a realist, I believe that your view of life came from environmental influence. For example, a Christian child wasn't BORN to feel the presence of God and was ignorant at the start of who the hell Jesus even was. Yet he was raised to be Christian by his parents, and he soon then felt the feeling of providence, felt God answering his prayers, and felt Jesus beside his bed every night before he went to sleep.

I used to be a Christian--I felt all those things. I was never raised a Christian, but when I was really young, I joined a summer church camp program and became a Christian. After that, I joined church youth groups and whatnot and then the brainwashing began. Before that, I felt no presence of God--it was only till the day that I walked into the church that had convinced me to convert that I felt it, I felt God, and I felt like I had known him all my life.

Same with sexuality. Before when I was ignorant about what the fuck the word 'gay' even meant, I was fine. I was completely attracted to boys, and only boys. Then one day, someone told me what it was--I was a bit engrossed, the idea was new to me. And many people seemed to mock homosexuality and use "gay" in negative ways. So then I figured that being gay was wrong, that gay people must be crazy.

And then I actually met bisexual/gay people, and they were alright. They were just like anyone else, except they had a different perception on sexuality. So then I realized that being gay isn't all that bad, that people are gay, and since this country is becoming so damn liberal, I guess it's just a new belief. However, church held me back and I decided to become a homophobe, to say that being gay was sin, blah blah blah. Then this year, I broke away from Christianity, and now I'm a lot more open to homosexuality. I'm not exactly attracted to the same sex--but I have my bi curious moments. If I wanted to experiment, I could probably try it out and won't be completely engrossed by it. But then again, maybe it's because I'm an artist. =P

To anyone who thinks it's a choice, I might remind: In the mid-east, they often hang homosexuals. And yet, there are plenty of homosexuals in barbaric Islam.

Don't be put off though; the Judeo/Christian barbarians used to do the same & even worse, and would again, given the opportunity.

Maybe they met some people early in their life who were homosexual and began to perceive homosexuality as a positive thing, and maybe they began to perceive it as THEIR sexuality. So now because they THINK that they are gay and they were destined to be gay, they stick to it. I personally think that "fate", "destiny", and all that shit are allusions, too, though. But that's just my opinion as a realist.

As you are undoubtedly aware, fundamentalist Christian religion has largely held to the view that homosexuality is a learned life-style and that homosexuals can be "cured" by conversion to bible-thumping Christianity. This dogmatic assertion has played large in Republican politics in recent years, and seems certain to be a factor in the '08 elections. Scientific research seems to suggest otherwise:

There are so many articles on "scientific research" saying that people are born gay, that being gay can be determined when the baby is in the womb, blah blah blah. And there are also "scientific research" saying that people AREN'T born gay. Science is easily fallible, and so far there is PURE evidence to whether a person is born gay or not. It's like religion--there is 'evidence' on God's existence, and there are also 'evidence' on God's nonexistence. Most articles are biased, therefore I don't exactly believe in a right or wrong answer.

Homosexuality is not a mental disorder. It has been removed from the DSM because scientifically anyhow, we live in more enlightened times.

It was removed because of some riot or march. Read about it somewhere...if you want me to pull it out, I can.

My signature consists of my not having a signature.
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2008 :  17:08:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by the seeker

It was removed because of some riot or march. Read about it somewhere...if you want me to pull it out, I can.
Yeah, you'd better pull it out. The implications of your statement are that the DSM can get changed not because of the science, but just because people shout loudly enough. That needs real support, not "read about it somewhere."

Oh, and your long discussion of "perception" seems to miss the "choice" part. I can't choose to perceive a red-hot stove as being cool to the touch. I can't choose to perceive grass as purple with yellow polka-dots.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
Go to Top of Page

Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2008 :  06:02:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I asked a gay male whom I know. He said he'd always been gay. Even when he married and had a daughter with a woman.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
Go to Top of Page

BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2008 :  07:14:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If it were a choice(which I dont doubt a small percentage are choosing) why would so many animal species exhibit homosexual behavior?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

According to Wikigod, over 1500 species have shown some behavior with it well documented in 500+

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
Go to Top of Page

leoofno
Skeptic Friend

USA
346 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2008 :  08:10:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send leoofno a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.
I can't choose to perceive grass as purple with yellow polka-dots.

Then you ain't smokin' the right kind of grass.

"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 2 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Jump To:

The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact, and we invite active participation by our members to create a skeptical community with a wide variety of viewpoints and expertise.


Home | Skeptic Forums | Skeptic Summary | The Kil Report | Creation/Evolution | Rationally Speaking | Skeptillaneous | About Skepticism | Fan Mail | Claims List | Calendar & Events | Skeptic Links | Book Reviews | Gift Shop | SFN on Facebook | Staff | Contact Us

Skeptic Friends Network
© 2008 Skeptic Friends Network Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.62 seconds.
Powered by @tomic Studio
Snitz Forums 2000