Skeptic Friends Network

Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?
Home | Forums | Active Topics | Active Polls | Register | FAQ | Contact Us  
  Connect: Chat | SFN Messenger | Buddy List | Members
Personalize: Profile | My Page | Forum Bookmarks  
 All Forums
 Community Forums
 General Discussion
 Super generator? Perpetual motion? Another grift?
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 10

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2008 :  03:44:45  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is pretty interesting, although I admit that I don't know enough about the science to comment.
`Holy crap, this is really scary,' inventor says of strange phenomenon

Feb 04, 2008 04:30 AM
Tyler Hamilton
Energy Reporter

It all began back in 1985, when Thane Heins, having studied electronics at Heritage College in Gatineau, Quebec, started thinking about how magnets could be used to improve power generators.

But it wasn't until after the 9/11 attacks that he started seriously experimenting in his basement, motivated by the desire to reduce our dependence on oil and the countries that back terrorism.

Heins tinkered away, making what seemed like good progress, until one day in early 2006 he stumbled on to something strange. As part of a test, he had connected the driveshaft of an electric motor to a steel rotor with small round magnets lining its outer edges. The idea was that as the rotor spun, the magnets would pass by a wire coil placed just in front of them to generate electrical energy – in other words, it would operate like a simple generator.
I wonder; magnets seem to go in & out of vouge pretty regularly, as do their related scams. Is Mr. Heins trying to set us up for yet another, or is his explanation of the phenomina mistaken, or has he actually stumbled upon something.

We'll see....




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2008 :  03:59:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bad reporting.

My take is that Thane Heins is more likely mistaken or a crackpot than a scammer, as I saw no attempt to obtain investments (though that may have merely been another oversight of the reporter). Either way, though, I'll lay my money on the laws of thermodynamics any day. People who know a lot more than I do about physics have never found a way around those, and many have tried.

If this guy has such a simple working system, why isn't it being demonstrated to skeptics? Why isn't it already a major power source? From the reading article, there is no indication that the reporter, Tyler Hamilton, even witnessed the functioning of device. It all seems to be written based upon on Thane Heins' say-so.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Go to Top of Page

Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2008 :  04:08:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"What I can say with full confidence is that our system violates the law of conservation of energy," he says.



Uh huh.

I'll eat my shoe if he is correct.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
Go to Top of Page

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2008 :  04:23:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, that was my first thought; why the hell is he telling us and not the appropriate fields science -- after getting a patent on the process, of course. If he really had something, and any brains at all, he'd not be talking to the media.

But interesting none the less.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Go to Top of Page

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2008 :  04:53:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's a little more....
Has college dropout done the impossible and created a perpetual motion machine?

Feb 04, 2008 04:30 AM
Tyler Hamilton
Energy Reporter

Thane Heins is nervous and hopeful. It's Jan. 24, a Thursday afternoon, and in four days the Ottawa-area native will travel to Boston where he'll demonstrate an invention that appears – though he doesn't dare say it – to operate as a perpetual motion machine.

The audience, esteemed Massachusetts Institute of Technology professor Markus Zahn, could either deflate Heins' heretical claims or add momentum to a 20-year obsession that has broken up his marriage and lost him custody of his two young daughters.

Zahn is a leading expert on electromagnetic and electronic systems. In a rare move for any reputable academic, he has agreed to give Heins' creation an open-minded look rather than greet it with outright dismissal.

It's a pivotal moment. The invention, at its very least, could moderately improve the efficiency of induction motors, used in everything from electric cars to ceiling fans. At best it means a way of tapping the mysterious powers of electromagnetic fields to produce more work out of less effort, seemingly creating electricity from nothing.
Would that it could be, however a quick google on Prof Zahn produced this:
Markus Zahn was born in Bergen-Belsen, Germany on December 3, 1946. He came to the United States with his parents in 1949 and became a naturalized US citizen in 1955. He received the BSEE and MSEE degrees in 1968 as part of the VI-A Internship Program where he worked as an intern at Raytheon Co., the Electrical Engineers degree in 1969, and the Sc.D. degree in 1970, all from the Department of Electrical Engineering at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

Nano Backgrounder
From 1970-1980 he was a professor in the Department of Electrical Engineering at the University of Florida, Gainesville. He spent the 1972 summer as a Guest Worker at the National Bureau of Standards and spent his 1976-77 sabbatical year in the Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science at MIT. He joined the MIT faculty in 1980 and is now Professor of Electrical Engineering working in the Laboratory for Electromagnetic and Electronic Systems and in the MIT High Voltage Research Laboratory. He is also the Director of the MIT Course VI-A Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Internship Program, a cooperative work/study program with Industry.
So, we can assume that Prof. Zahn is the real deal -- will Mr. Heins' contraption pass the scrutiny of a life time of intense study of the electromagnetic prosess'?

Stay tuned.....




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 02/07/2008 04:55:10
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2008 :  08:14:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That second article filthy linked to says in no uncertain terms that Heins is looking for investors, and has been at this for more than two years already.

If the thing works with a steel shaft, and fails with a plastic shaft, then my bet would be that he's accidentally adding power through the shaft through already-known physics. Bad circuit design, not new magnetic phenomena.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
Go to Top of Page

Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2008 :  10:26:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.
If the thing works with a steel shaft, and fails with a plastic shaft, then my bet would be that he's accidentally adding power through the shaft through already-known physics. Bad circuit design, not new magnetic phenomena.
That's my thought as well.


Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
Go to Top of Page

ktesibios
SFN Regular

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2008 :  15:24:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ktesibios a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There isn't enough information in the articles to get anything resembling a decent picture of Heins' doo-dad, so there's little point in speculating about just where he's made his mistake.

OTOH, as some wise person once said, "the race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet", so I'd put my money on our understanding of thermodynamics and electromagnetism, both of which have had the very bejayzus studied out of them over the past two centuries.

I wonder if we might be seeing a new Joe Newman in the early stages- an amateur experimenter who develops into a crank and ultimately an outright scamster.


"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers
Go to Top of Page

bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2008 :  15:03:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dave.....

If the thing works with a steel shaft, and fails with a plastic shaft, then my bet would be that he's accidentally adding power through the shaft through already-known physics. Bad circuit design, not new magnetic phenomena.

I understood that the basic shaft was a hollow brass tube.

Brass, being primarily an alloy of copper, is a pretty good conductor! Thane states that electromagnetic flux is conducted by the steel plug insert, which is nonsense! Ferromagnetic materials do not conduct magnetism in the same way they conduct electricty in an electrical circuit.

If the steel plug became magnetized, the ensuing magnetic field would not affect the rotation of the armature, as the ends of the steel plug would be oppositionally polarized and the magnetic field would be a rotating ellipse, outside of the range of the armature, which is changing polarity sixty times a second (on standard AC current)

Also, the shaft could not conduct electricity to the armature of the motor without a return path to complete the circuit.

It's my guess that there is a hidden power wire to the motor, a hidden switch, and if Thane has a shoot-out with Randi, he'll never come back!
Go to Top of Page

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2008 :  07:16:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck

I understood that the basic shaft was a hollow brass tube.
From the first link filthy posted:
The steel rotor and driveshaft...
But that could just be sloppy English, with the "and" not connecting "steel" with "driveshaft." More importantly, however:
Heins confirmed his theory by replacing part of the driveshaft with plastic pipe that wouldn't conduct the magnetic field. There was no acceleration.
Plastic also wouldn't conduct electricity. Because he had a motor on one end with a generator on the other, I suspect that he simply had a circuit hidden even to himself that increased power to the motor.
It's my guess that there is a hidden power wire to the motor, a hidden switch...
You're attributing it to malice. I'm attributing it to stupidity.

Of course, the later stories, in which simply moving a permanent magnetic into close proximity with the motor speeds it up are even more perplexing. Unknowningly boosting the power seems unlikely in such a scenario.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
Go to Top of Page

bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2008 :  01:08:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dave.....

Go to the first video clip and listen carefully about 2:00. I think Thane, the straightshitter, says that the shaft is steel (ferromagnetic and electrically conductive), but it has a hollow brass coupler (non-ferromagnetic and electrically conductive) and that there is an air gap inside the hollow brass coupler (also non-magnetically conductive).

Then, in phase two of the demonstrarion, Thane replaces the air gap in the brass coupler with a steel plug. Now we have both a ferromagnetic and electrically conductive connection, at least to the armature core of the motor!

In both the first and second instances, there is an electrical conductivity path to the armature core of the motor. In the first instance, there is not ferromagnetic connection to the motor (hollow brass coupling and air core) but when he puts the steel plug into the hollow brass coupling (second instance), he establishes a ferromagnetic connection to the armature core.

So he is saying that electrical conductivity pathways are present in both instances, but ferromagnetic magnetic field conductivity is present only in the second instance. He concludes therefore, that back EMF, not additional electricity, is causing the acceleration of the motor.
Plastic also wouldn't conduct electricity. Because he had a motor on one end with a generator on the other, I suspect that he simply had a circuit hidden even to himself that increased power to the motor.

1. I have not seen or heard any reference to plastic in the apparatus' drive train in Thane's videos.

2. "A motor on one end and a generator on the other" implies that you feel that he is (perhaps unknowingly) conducting the electricity produced by the generator back into the motor - in addition to the primary line power source that is obviously driving the motor. I cannot think of a way that this additional current could be conducted through the shaft of the apparatus, even though is indeed electrically conductive in both the before and after instances.

3. The electrical energy is generated in the field coil(s) of the generator by the rotating magnets on the wheel, and these coils would have to be wired in a closed circuit of some sort to the field coils of the induction motor in order to increase the energy input to the motor and cause it to accelerate. I don't see any way that a circuit (requiring pickup brushes, a commutator etc.) could be established to deliver energy to the armature of the motor. And if it was accomplished by some miracle of circuit design, the effect would need to be one of increasing the strength of the magnetic field of the field coils, as an induction motor does not allow for direct input of current into the rotor, (as contrasted with a synchronous AC motor.) I do not see how there could be additional electrical energy transferred from the rotor of the motor to the stator (field coils).

Neither do I see how the magnetization of the steel shaft+steel plug could in any way increase the RPM's of the motor, as I said in my previous post.

If Thane is honest, but confused, he thinks that an additional input of magnetism is somehow accelerating his induction motor. If he is a charatan, he has established a secret method to provide additional voltage to the motor, probably by secretly switching resistors in and out of the motor's primary power supply.

I sent the intro from my thread to Randi.
----- Original Message -----
From: William Buck
To: James Randi
Cc: William Buck
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 7:29 PM
Subject: THE perpetual motion machine!!!

James .....
As the resident, regular, nutjob at SFN who has a deep and abiding conviction in the existence of green dwarfs pilot
Go to Top of Page

JustMe
Skeptic Friend

64 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2008 :  09:17:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JustMe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, it gets better! Wait...I...I...I... can hardly get this out....for all the laughing! I think...I think....I think I'm gonna pee my pants! You know who wants to see it now, pending an abstract of the work done thus far? NASA wants to see it! Oh man, there's a rocket scientist sucker born every minute.

The internet has a long memory Mr. Buck. If this turns out to be a real advance in energy science you and others may find yourselves the objects of just the kind of general hilarity and derision you direct at others. Seriously, just what has Mr. Heins done to deserve your rudeness? Healthy (and vital) skepticism does not require pompous ass rudeness. He's put a demonstration out there, and continues to both invite and facilitate understanding and replication of his work.

Your self indulgent and self congratulatory tone is dull and distasteful, regardless of the outcome of this particular effort. I for one am grateful to be someone who can be respectful of the rich promise of all things yet unknown.
Go to Top of Page

Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2008 :  15:04:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JustMe
Your self indulgent and self congratulatory tone is dull and distasteful, regardless of the outcome of this particular effort. I for one am grateful to be someone who can be respectful of the rich promise of all things yet unknown.

JustMe, some of what you perceive as "self indulgent and self congratulatory tone" is our venting our inability to seriously examine this fellow's claim. In order to do that, we need to know more about the contraption of his. I see a damn lot of cables running all over the place.
What I need to make a serious analysis of his claims is a detailed schematic with information on exactly what kind of electric motor he's using, and how the entire magnetic-coil, axis-shaft, electrical circuitry etc. is connected.
Not until then can I make an informed opinion. Until then, this whole thing smell like a carnival show.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
Go to Top of Page

Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2008 :  15:09:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and by the way...

Welcome to Skeptic Friends Network, JustMe. I hope you stick around a while. You may actually get to like us, despite our flaws. Honestly.

We may need a kick in the butt every now and then when we get too self indulgent and congratulatory. Our member filthy slaps us around once in a while when he thinks we're getting overboard. Except when we're making fun of Creationists and the Intelligent Design-movement, where he gladly joins.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
Go to Top of Page

bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2008 :  16:10:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just Me Jr........

I would suggest you ask your mother to put you in a diaper. Peeing in your pants is really distasteful personal hygiene!

By the way, welcome to SFN! We're going to get along famously, I can see.
Your self indulgent and self congratulatory tone is dull and distasteful, regardless of the outcome of this particular effort.
Your cheery first post warms my heart and raises gleeful expectations of further discourse with you! En Garde! But please read the last paragraph in this post before raising your foil!
I for one am grateful to be someone who can be respectful of the rich promise of all things yet unknown
I may even speak for others here when I say that I am grateful for what appears to be an opportunity to educate a woo-woo challenged innocent and advance her juvenile Pilgrim's Progress to some level of enlightenment! There is indeed rich promise of things unknown coming to you!
_____________________________________________________________________________________

I now request that you curb your youthful proclivity for insult momentarily, and focus here on the ambivilance of the reported event. Mr. Thane's "discovery" appears to consist of two entirely different phenomena:

1. A possible "feedback" of either electrical or EMF energy into the induction motor driving a mechanically coupled motor-generator apparatus, suggesting >Unity or PM (sans friction effects)
This "motor to generator" PM concept is as old as Faraday.
I am reasonably certain that NASA, despite their well-publicized failings, is not highly excited by this reinvention of the square wheel! As you give no reference to this alleged NASA interest, there is, of course, no way to tell!

2. A totally unrelated "demonstration" of an apparent acceleration of the rotor of an induction motor when a neodymnium permanent magnet is manually introduced into the local fields space of the motor, which may suggest a violation of the Work Energy Principle of the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
If, in fact, this turns out to be a genuine, repeatable field enhancement effect, a great many more folks than NASA are going to be intensely interested in it. It would have enormous commercial implications, to say nothing of some reexamination of the niceties of certain Laws of Physics!


re 1. The first event was reported in the Thane video clip as suggestive of a >Unity phenomenon. If it is your intuition that this is in fact what is happening, I and many others here, would appreciate your erudite and referenced explanation of the first recorded violation of TD2 since the principle was first formulated by Sadi Carnot in 1824.

re 2. The second demonstration is a good deal more mysterious. Far better informed minds than mine, or certainly yours, have expressed puzzlement at what appears at first blush to be a violation of The Work Energy Principle.

However, currently there is a lack of consensus as to whether or not this corollary derivation of TD2 is applicable to the introduction of a secondary permanent magnetic field into a previously closed electromagnetic work system. Several engineers and scientists are currently considering this and awaiting results of experiment replication.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Just You, if this pitifully floundering attempt at ego expression of yours is merely a hit and run, we will all forget it soon enough. However, if you intend to continue to post in these forums, you will soon encounter Dave W. who pretty much enforces the rules around here. Paramount among these is this --- when you make a statement, provide references; specifically links to back up what is otherwise merely "self-indulgent" opinion or else pure bullshit! For example, your snipe:
You know who wants to see it now, pending an abstract of the work done thus far? NASA wants to see it!
Link, please?


Just You; stylistically, I truly appreciate the general tone, syntax and vocabular expression of your first post! It is far superior to many who come here just to troll and, because you at least show some maturity in your selection of words, grammar and proper spelling; even shades of subtlety in the literary structure of your personal attack, I have greatly enjoyed engaging with you. I fully expect a response in kind, and am looking forward to it!

A cautionary note, however. These SFN Forums support free thought, but do not completely support free expression of those thoughts. I personally, and many others, have run afoul of the Rules from time to time, both with respect to written expression and also image presentation! I suggest you follow the link I have provided above and apprise yourself of this Forum's policies.

I probably have violated some of the "argumentation and ad hominem" interpretations of the Forum rules in my ripostes to your unpleasantness in this very post. If so, you will see a bright red "Warning" of dire consequences directed to me. The goalposts as to what is and isn't acceptable are frequently mobile, translucent - occasionally invisible!

Generally, there has been a strong (perhaps too strong) suppression of schoolyard squabbles (you and I would excel at those), personally directed profanity and vulgarisms (PC for obscenity), and certainly obvious Trolling. I do not know if you are one of these dreaded subterranean creatures, but time will certainly tell! However, feel free to fuck, shit and piss all you want, just not directly with or upon another!

One never knows when one is going to trespass the subjective boundries in Dave's and the other SFN luminaries minds, and I personally walk a pretty tight line frequently. The Censorial Powers are particularly sensitive to images, particularly suggestive images. Best to run those before Authority before posting. PM's are available for that!

But as a word from one who has too often been in the Expression Police's sights, to one who aspires to be Wise instead of a wiseass; I caution you to take care with the construction of your no doubt already fulminating and tart retort to my highly intentional baiting here!


Go to Top of Page

bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2008 :  16:28:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Filthy, et al.....

A comment from Randi in today's SWIFT item no.11.

ANOTHER MARVELOUS MACHINE


Reader William Buck – and quite a few others – brought to my attention a dreary video series about a man who has connected a motor to a generator, waved some neodymium magnets over the motor, and says he has either “free energy” or perpetual motion – which is not at all clear from the contents of the video clips. As William suggests:

Bring popcorn Excedrin, and a pillow! Maybe it'll get an Academy Award for Extraspecial effects?

Yes, this thing has taken the Internet by storm. Google it and you get connections to dozens of sites that are all agog, with claims that an MIT professor is shouting Hosanna! at this revelation. Says William:

I wrote him a letter telling him that he and the MIT guy should apply for a shot at the Randi prize, and he wrote back, "What's that?" Go figure

William, I think I'll just wait for this to boil down to its residue before getting too excited …
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 10 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Jump To:

The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact, and we invite active participation by our members to create a skeptical community with a wide variety of viewpoints and expertise.


Home | Skeptic Forums | Skeptic Summary | The Kil Report | Creation/Evolution | Rationally Speaking | Skeptillaneous | About Skepticism | Fan Mail | Claims List | Calendar & Events | Skeptic Links | Book Reviews | Gift Shop | SFN on Facebook | Staff | Contact Us

Skeptic Friends Network
© 2008 Skeptic Friends Network Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.88 seconds.
Powered by @tomic Studio
Snitz Forums 2000