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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 18:09:38 [Permalink]
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Ok to clear this up a bit,
I in no way think that what the ALF did was a good idea or an effective way of accomplishing their goals as I know them.
My point is that there is nothing which is inherantly right or wrong, to judge something requires a particular perspective. No one believes that all people will bend to their point of view just because they attack something. They only have to justify it to themselves.
I also acknowledge the very obvious fact that if everyone believed that there were no right and wrong and they could do anything they desired it would become a total disaster very quickly. As humans we have evolved a community ethic which is very powerful which some extend to the all time preservation of the species. However if you take the perspective of anything non-human the destruction of the human race might seem most reasonable.
Also, on the ALF thing, I dont nessisarily consider them terrorists because they truly believe that this person was an enemy to their cause. If they blew up a market or something and spraypainted ALF on the wall, they are terrorists. Some people dont know they are starting a war with group X when they do something they consider to be positive or innocuous.
Sigh my first version of this post was much better but alas I destroyed it with my itchy fingers.
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 02/19/2008 : 18:55:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Also, on the ALF thing, I dont nessisarily consider them terrorists because they truly believe that this person was an enemy to their cause. If they blew up a market or something and spraypainted ALF on the wall, they are terrorists. Some people dont know they are starting a war with group X when they do something they consider to be positive or innocuous. |
Wow, I so don't agree with this. So in this perspective, people who bomb abortion clinics or shoot doctors with high powered sniper rifles aren't terrorists because their target are their actual perceived "enemies" and not a proxy. Never mind if, as you say, this "war" isn't acknowledged by all parties. Never mind that these are civilians with families doing a job. So long as a militant group decides you are working in opposition to their aims, burning down your house is not domestic terrorism.
Nope, can't buy that.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/20/2008 11:40:00 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 02:53:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Also, on the ALF thing, I dont nessisarily consider them terrorists because they truly believe that this person was an enemy to their cause. If they blew up a market or something and spraypainted ALF on the wall, they are terrorists. Some people dont know they are starting a war with group X when they do something they consider to be positive or innocuous. |
The point of especially targeting this professor has the over all purpose of intimidating the rest of the faculty population. So I still don't see how this differs from any other act of terrorism.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 06:16:06 [Permalink]
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| Well we disagree then, no big deal. Do you consider carpet bombing terrorism? I sure as hell do. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 08:07:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
From their point of view yes I do. Considering that a large % of species has become extinct since the pro-animal efforts began circa 1970, if your primary goals are to protect animal species, the current system is essentially useless and arguments for change have little or too slow effects. In the words of Ishmael, the world was made for man and man was made to conquer and rule it. Even us skeptics are woefully attached to this ideal.
Now if you'll excuse me I have a cut-rate t-bone to eat and the growth hormones taste best when hot.
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Hmmm.... ALF is about humane treatment of animals, arn't they? This is about testing and meat eating and furs, not conservation or endangered species. Two related but different issues, IMHO. That is to say, saving monkeys from lab-torture or pigs from my breakfast isn't going to help the multitude of species going extinct in the Amazon every year, nor can I imagine do the ALF folks intend it to. On the other hand, I could be wrong on that intent thing; I wouldn't presume to accuse them of being rational in their rationalizations.
Regarding animals that are 'grown' for food (and clothes and testing, too) I have to wonder if they would be better off if we didn't use them thus. Afterall, the chicken population is by far larger and safer from extinction in our tender care than if the species were left to the wilderness. In many ways that's an evolutionary success story. Ultimately, wild or domesticated, a chicken's just as likely to end up dinner for some predator eventually. What difference does it make if it gets harvested and packaged for the supermarket vs if it gets ripped apart in the woods by a puma?
Our bodies are evolved to subsist at least in part on meat. Veganism is as 'unnatural' and unhealthy for humans as television and automobiles. These ALF character's ideology really doesn't have a leg to stand on. The only basis for their argument is killing and eating animals is icky and it hurts. Well holy shit, welcome to life.
Also, do you actually believe that sentiment "the world was made for man and man was made to conquer and rule it?" Some thoughts: We might rule among the animal and plant kingdoms - mostly - but we don't rule the 'natural' world. Also, I'm under the impression man and the world was not really made for much of anything, but that's a matter of Faith I guess and therefore pointless to discuss. But all in all, that sentiment is a poor argument for going around mauling the rest of the biosphere as we see fit. I'm not saying there isn't an argument for that, or maybe better said I'm not saying there is an argument against it; just that the man made for this or that sentiment is crap.
EDITED some bad grammar and confusing sentences |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 02/20/2008 09:25:07 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 08:28:41 [Permalink]
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Also, do you actually believe that sentiment "the world was made for man and man was made to conquer and rule it?"
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No I certainly do not, but I do believe that this concept is deeply ingrained in the vast majority of human cultures. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 09:21:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Also, do you actually believe that sentiment "the world was made for man and man was made to conquer and rule it?"
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No I certainly do not, but I do believe that this concept is deeply ingrained in the vast majority of human cultures.
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Ain't that the truth. Just one more rationalization . . . . |
-Chaloobi
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 11:18:36 [Permalink]
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| We disagree all the time actually. But I do agree that it is a fair comparison. Why not answer the question you quoted? The fine line semantics of who is a terroist or military target or freedom fighter is a non-issue to me. All of them will have opposition on a moral front somewhere and neither side in each case is 'right'. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 11:31:14 [Permalink]
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This isnt an issue of science and as such will never be clear cut or testable, who's to say whether Totalitarianism or altruism might make humanity stable with its environment, no simulation could ever predict the results of our future choices, so people feel the need to take matters into their own hands in whatever way they can. Morality is relative, get over it and kick the asses of those who disagree with you before they kick yours!
I blame God and free will.
Also as I thought I made clear, I think ALFers are morons who will never reach their goals with the tactics they have chosen. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 11:40:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Also as I thought I made clear, I think ALFers are morons who will never reach their goals with the tactics they have chosen.
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That we can agree on.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 14:28:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Why not answer the question you quoted?
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I believe I did, even if not directly. As I said, terrorism is about intention, not action. If the intent of carpet bombing is to terrorize, then sure. Now you may say that this is just playing word games, but if I have no more information than just carpet bombing, then I can't conclude whether or not it is a terrorist action. Some instances can certainly be, while others not.
| This isnt an issue of science and as such will never be clear cut or testable, who's to say whether Totalitarianism or altruism might make humanity stable with its environment, no simulation could ever predict the results of our future choices, so people feel the need to take matters into their own hands in whatever way they can. Morality is relative, get over it and kick the asses of those who disagree with you before they kick yours! |
Sure, but you could also say basically the same thing about all of politics. So what? That doesn't end the debate. When things are not clear cut, that is where debate is needed. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2008 : 06:09:34 [Permalink]
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| Well at this point im not sure what exactly we are debating. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2008 : 06:57:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Well at this point im not sure what exactly we are debating.
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Whether those idiots should be shot on sight or shipped off to Guantanamo Bed&Breakfast. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2008 : 07:51:03 [Permalink]
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That depends on your point of veiw, I could justify both arguments! :) JK
Personally I think regular old prison will do fine in this case. At least until ALF conducts a coup and takes over the world, then they get medals and pardons.
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Prof's home attacked by suspected ALF terrorists
