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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 03/15/2008 : 03:46:27 [Permalink]
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bng said:
| Unlike some here at SFN, I am not entirely comfortable with Critical Thinking as thinking sufficient to reject all of that for which there is insufficient evidence |
I'm not entirely sure (the grammar is a bit off) what you are saying, but I think I have the gist.
It isn't that we reject the concepts out of hand. We reject the claims. A subtle, yet important, distinction. Claims require evidence, and when they are presented without evidence they are rejected (sometimes vehemently).
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Nightwolf
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 04:13:07 [Permalink]
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bngbuck apology accepted, and really thanks for claifying that I at first was wondering what you guys would react to my original post but now I see that there is more to skepticism than I originally though. Its good to question things I to am somewhat skeptic but I choose to keep an open mind on most things.
I completely agree, these claims as you say of things happening I dont know if you know anyone close who has had anything paranormal happen to them but lets say it was someone very close to you and they had a paranormal experiance would you believe them? Or would you choose to think in the scientific terms that it was there imagination or in the classic of Scrooge's quote, "A bit of cheese."
Its very hard to believe these things because mainly if this sort of stuff has never happened to you then its hard to swallow. But thats why I initially asked some of you guys to meditate its one of the ways to open yourselves to experiance these things. Also an open mind helps, I know that the scientific skeptics have already terms for alot of different paranormal phenomenon but even in the scientific community there are just as many as scientific phenomenon that they can as of yet cannot classify. If you choose to see the same evidence but in a different light and again in a different angle you shall see a bigger picture of what you have at hand but if you continually use the scientific approach your only limiting yourselves to a certain camera lens.
I am not saying to believe me at all but just to try walking the path that I have walked and at least see where that gets you. Who knows you may be the next Edgar Cayce (FYI the famous sleeping prophet).
Try meditating I know because it helps you to attain different brain waves from theta to ... well etc. this has all be scientifically documented with a SQUID its the device that reads and records your brain wave patterns click on the link to know more about it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetoencephalography thats to change your awarness... but to more your energy thats a different thing as well. It feels different to different people, but the thing is that they do feel it. Thats basically energy work and it comes from many different names from chi, ki, prana, etc. Different regains have names for something thats intangible either its case of mass histeria, or theres something there that the all can experiance with a little practice.
Its up to any of you.
Peace and Love,
Nightwolf |
Some people take Skepticism is a religion. It isn't its to question everything till ultimately finding the truth. If that is your case then we are on the same path then. |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 05:07:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Nightwolf
All these words like apophenia or pareidolia are just names to describe something. |
You know, Nightwolf's right. I wish you'd all just stop using words that just describe things. From now on, I want to see a lot of words that are things.
Or something.
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John's just this guy, you know. |
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Nightwolf
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 05:29:17 [Permalink]
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Oh John you hurt me so LOL j/k ;)
Peace,
Nightwolf |
Some people take Skepticism is a religion. It isn't its to question everything till ultimately finding the truth. If that is your case then we are on the same path then. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 05:59:04 [Permalink]
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Dude....
Bonjour, notre prochaine recontre! You state:| I'm not entirely sure (the grammar is a bit off) what you are saying, but I think I have the gist. |
God, you're breakin' my heart, Dude, Grammar gone goosey is about the worsest thing I can imagine! Where did I fail?| I am not entirely comfortable with Critical Thinking as thinking sufficient to reject all of that for which there is insufficient evidence |
Translation: I do not necessarily agree with those who strictly follow the mandates of Critical Thinking to the degree that a concept (if you prefer) that is not substantiated by sufficient evidence to merit a verdict of scientific proof, is either rejected or arbitrarily set aside as unworthy of further consideration until sufficient evidence develops to accept it!
I have seen this several times on these forums - not necessarily by you, and I don't have names at the moment. If you feel this is a subject worthy of further discussion, I will have to dig back into past posts or archives to retrieve examples. I'm willing to do this as a symbol of my perseverance (as if I hadn't given you enough evidence of that stupid quality already) but I would prefer to simply talk about the, excuse me, concept rather than go through all the machinations again that we just finished! | It isn't that we reject the concepts out of hand. We reject the claims. A subtle, yet important, distinction. Claims require evidence, and when they are presented without evidence they are rejected (sometimes vehemently). |
Yes, claims, statements intended to be taken as fact, must have substantial reference or they remain simply opinion! Which can be properly dismissed if there is ample evidence to the contrary! But dismissing opinion of apparent merit (logic, "common sense", lots of anecdotal substantiation); which is not contradicted by properly conducted scientific investigation, may be premature and arrogant. That is my point! |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 06:52:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
But dismissing opinion of apparent merit (logic, "common sense", lots of anecdotal substantiation); which is not contradicted by properly conducted scientific investigation, may be premature and arrogant. |
"May be" being the important term. History shows it's probably not, because there's a lot more nonsense out there than science.
There are, after all, an infinite number of claims which don't contradict the results of scientific investigations simply because we don't have time to scientifically investigate an infinite number of claims. While on the other hand, there are only a finite number of claims we know to be true. Withholding judgement simply due to a lack of investigation seems unwarranted, especially when we have other clues (like similarities between claims). There's no reason to treat claims as if they exist in a historical vacuum. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/15/2008 : 07:01:38 [Permalink]
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Meditation is no big deal, really. I think that everyone does it in one form or another, consciously or otherwise. I certainly do and have done 'most all my life. It clears the mind, a necessity for any exacting project. And it only takes a few minutes.
Being busy elsewhere in the world, I never did the organized, more or less, transcendental stuff.
As for the so-called 'psi' abilities, I've heard many claims and seen a lot of acts that would be astonishing if I didn't know how they were done. Thus far, the best I can call any of them is bunk. I would be very interested to see some genuine, paranormal abilities demonstrated, but I am not holding my breath waiting for it.
Hah, some decades back, I was convinced that I could dowse, until I sat down and thought about it one day. That turned out to be bunk as well. How easy it is to fool yourself! 
Welcome to SFN, Nightwolf.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 08:31:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Nightwolf
Yes PK (Psychokinesis) has been demonstrated in labs. Some videos from Russia have leaked and they are pretty old too. |
If you mean Nina Kulagina, then only the ability to move objects was demonstrated in Soviet labs. It was never demonstrated that she moved objects with her mind alone. Due to the secrecy surrounding her abilities, the cold war subterfuge rampant during that period in history, the limitations of the experiments conducted on her and the absence of magicians familiar with sleight-on-hand trickery in these experiments, considerable doubt remains as to the legitimacy of Nina as a genuine phenomenon.
Telekinesis (or psychokinesis) remains undemonstrated.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/15/2008 08:56:00 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 09:01:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Nightwolf
Yes PK (Psychokinesis) has been demonstrated in labs. Some videos from Russia have leaked and they are pretty old too. |
If you mean Nina Kulagina, then only ability to move objects has been demonstrated in Soviet labs. It was never demonstrated that she moved objects with her mind alone. Due to the secrecy surrounding her abilities, the cold war subterfuge rampant during that period in history, the limitations of the experiments conducted on her and the absence of magicians familiar with sleight-on-hand trickery in these experiments, considerable doubt remains as to the legitimacy of Nina as a genuine phenomenon.
Telekinesis (or psychokinesis) remains undemonstrated.
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Indeed, and these data have never been put to peer review nor, as far as I know, duplicated outside of the Soviet Union.
As I recall, the CIA did some of the same experiments with results that, in hindsight, might have been expected. I dunno, they might be still be ongoing.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 14:30:14 [Permalink]
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Dave.....
| "May be" being the important term. |
Yes, that's why I used it.| There are, after all, an infinite number of claims which don't contradict the results of scientific investigations simply because we don't have time to scientifically investigate an infinite number of claims. |
I understand, however I used the word "opinion" not "claims", also "concept" (to accomodate Dude's use of the word!
With respect to "claims", my statement was..."| Yes, claims, statements intended to be taken as fact, must have substantial reference or they remain simply opinion! |
I stand by the statements of my opinion! |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 14:53:23 [Permalink]
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Nightwolf:
If you choose to see the same evidence but in a different light and again in a different angle you shall see a bigger picture of what you have at hand but if you continually use the scientific approach your only limiting yourselves to a certain camera lens. |
But I have used both lenses and what I learned is that the scientific lens is superior and results in a clearer and more accurate picture.
Try meditating I know because it helps you to attain different brain waves from theta to ... well etc. this has all be scientifically documented with a SQUID its the device that reads and records your brain wave patterns click on the link to know more about it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetoencephalography thats to change your awarness... but to more your energy thats a different thing as well. It feels different to different people, but the thing is that they do feel it. Thats basically energy work and it comes from many different names from chi, ki, prana, etc. Different regains have names for something thats intangible either its case of mass histeria, or theres something there that the all can experiance with a little practice. |
Lets not forget to mention that quantum physics proves that you can change reality by changing your belief about it. Or is the above yet another case of hijacking actual science to support a wild conjecture?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 16:47:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
I stand by the statements of my opinion! |
Replace "claim" with "opinion" in my post, and I still stand by it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Nightwolf
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 18:45:43 [Permalink]
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You are correct Kil when they first tried to predict where the electrons would be in an atom they realized the that human mind affected the outcome couldnt that be PK on a micro scale?
Kil you also said that "But I have used both lenses and what I learned is that the scientific lens is superior and results in a clearer and more accurate picture." This is also very true but it also depends on what your trying to see... if your trying to see the unseen via a science that has always relied on the solidity of reality when the other reality fluctuates as easily as a ripple in the water then your using the wrong camera lens but if you wish to study more of the physical reality I would completely agree with using science lens. Even sciences knows that physical reality is an illusion, so using science to see the inner world would be the wrong camera lens.
Peace,
Nightwolf |
Some people take Skepticism is a religion. It isn't its to question everything till ultimately finding the truth. If that is your case then we are on the same path then. |
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Nightwolf
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 18:47:33 [Permalink]
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filthy you are correct everyone does meditation weither aware or not, big one would be sleeping thats one... or go into a blank stare would be another example.
Peace,
Nightwolf |
Some people take Skepticism is a religion. It isn't its to question everything till ultimately finding the truth. If that is your case then we are on the same path then. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 19:36:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Nightwolf
...when they first tried to predict where the electrons would be in an atom they realized the that human mind affected the outcome... |
"They" realized no such thing. You have learned falsehoods: a completely wrong interpretation of quantum mechanics, specifically Heisenberg's Uncertainty.| ...the other reality fluctuates as easily as a ripple in the water... |
What evidence exists for any other reality?| Even sciences knows that physical reality is an illusion... |
No, no science "knows" any such thing. In fact, if that were indeed scientific knowledge, then that would be the end of science. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Psychic Update: not so psychic
