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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 19:53:25 [Permalink]
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Nightwolf:
You are correct Kil when they first tried to predict where the electrons would be in an atom they realized the that human mind affected the outcome couldnt that be PK on a micro scale? |
I'm sorry but that was sarcasm. Quantum physics says nothing at all about psi. That particular hijacking is a cliché and is all over the "New Age". If you really want to sell something, call it "quantum". The truth is, quantum physics describes the world at the atomic and sub atomic levels and has no relationship to anything paranormal. We call this kind of hijacking pseudoscience that in this case confers on science a claim never made by scientists. Oh, and what you describe above is that at the sub atomic level, depending on what kind of measurement is being used, waves and particles seem to be one or the other or both at the same time, which has nothing to do with the mind affecting the outcome of the test. You have fallen for some new age baloney...
Nightwolf:
Kil you also said that "But I have used both lenses and what I learned is that the scientific lens is superior and results in a clearer and more accurate picture." This is also very true but it also depends on what your trying to see... if your trying to see the unseen via a science that has always relied on the solidity of reality when the other reality fluctuates as easily as a ripple in the water then your using the wrong camera lens but if you wish to study more of the physical reality I would completely agree with using science lens. Even sciences knows that physical reality is an illusion, so using science to see the inner world would be the wrong camera lens. |
Science knows that physical reality is an illusion? Where do you get that? Might as well stop doing science now because if physical reality is all an illusion, what's the point?
Also, you keep ignoring that I have done what you have suggested as mentioned in three posts now, and the result was that I am now skeptical of psi.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Nightwolf
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 20:02:09 [Permalink]
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Well Dave please tell mew the right interpretation of quantum mechanics.
What would you consider as evidence for in other planes reality fluctuations? So let me try and give you the evidence that want to read and then scrutinize to your delight ;)
Physical reality is an illusion what is an atom basically energy... connecting the dots.
Peace,
Nightwolf |
Some people take Skepticism is a religion. It isn't its to question everything till ultimately finding the truth. If that is your case then we are on the same path then. |
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Nightwolf
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 20:08:11 [Permalink]
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quantum science vs paranormal its the same just different ways to describe it. I have no arguments with either because its saying tomato or tomaato... same thing. I just have looked in both to see it in both lenses and have a better understanding.
Now listen its understanding not knowing the detail its the difference between wisdom and intelligence.
Physical reality is an illusion there is evidence all over the place... basically that an atom is energy and E=mc^2 means that matter and energy is exchangeable... now ask yourselves the age old question which game first the chicken or the egg... but instead if those terms us energy or matter. ;)
Peace,
Nightwolf
Peace,
Nightwolf |
Some people take Skepticism is a religion. It isn't its to question everything till ultimately finding the truth. If that is your case then we are on the same path then. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
 Posted - 03/15/2008 : 20:09:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Nightwolf
Well Dave W. since you come to know how to lecture people please tell me the valid points that emsby and moakley added to the converstion. |
So it's either "hatred or fear" or "valid points?" For someone speaking the way you do about psychic abilities, a black-and-white view of people's motivations for commenting is odd, isn't it?| If you did notice I said I wasnt going to use scientific references because it ruffled some of your guys feathers, so that comment about me not being scientific I wasnt trying to be. |
Well, it only took a couple more posts before you started making proclamations about what "science knows." Proclamations which, as I said, are completely wrong.| Yes there are different types of meditation read about it if you care to learn. |
I didn't care when I was a meditator, why should I care about it now? Especially when, as I said, the different "kinds" aren't fundamentally different.| Yes PK (Psychokinesis) has been demonstrated in labs. Some videos from Russia have leaked and they are pretty old too. |
If H. Humbert is correct about the videos you're vaguely referencing, then those are exactly the sort of parlor tricks that I was talking about.Here is my points about the claim about everyone being inherently psychic. This would be logically thinking about this but you guys are still gonna try to tear me an new... anywho here goes
Everyone in this world is connected on the basis that they are not mindless vegitables. This means that if you had severed the link to your body then well you would be the vegetable, so on that basis you are connected. This connection goes both ways, it just takes practice and you can tune to the channel that you want to. Channel being anything that you know of.
If you guys get what I am saying...? |
Not a clue. You're far too vague. You seem to be positing some sort of dualism... the sort that is shown to be false by a simple greivous head wound.| Why do you say call Psipog parlor tricks? Have you tried them yourself? Or are you jumping to that conclusion? |
Another black-and-white choice: either I've tried what psipog says to try, or else I'm jumping to the conclusion that they're parlor tricks. You have a very closed mind. One so shut up tight that you can't really imagine that other people have examined tons and tons of evidence and come to a different conclusion than you have. Instead, these other people must have jumped to a conclusion or simply been prejudiced into dismissing whatever it is you believe in. Only you (and those who agree with you) have done the careful study required, and so only you have the right answer. Your arrogance is astounding.| On the skeptic thing you wrote I just read about it in Wikipedia now please define which one of those are they or do you believe to be a different type of skeptic in that case please again enlighten me. |
Try scientific skepticism, although I prefer the adjective "pragmatic."| The last bit that you said is good you should try using it more often. |
Hmmm... have I tried to blame you for a mistake I've made? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 20:18:43 [Permalink]
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Nightwolf:
Physical reality is an illusion what is an atom basically energy... connecting the dots. |
I'll tell you what. If you think physical reality is an illusion, and you can create your reality be changing your belief about it, try this. Take a bulb out of a light socket. Wet your fingers and stick them into the socket. But before doing that, create a belief that you have connected all the dots and that the energy coming from the socket will not hurt you. We are all part of the same energy with all the dots connected. Stick your fingers in. (Make sure it's switched on.)
Report back to us, if you can.
If I am correct, you will find out that there is a physical reality.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 20:26:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Nightwolf
Well Dave please tell mew the right interpretation of quantum mechanics. |
Wait a minute... you're telling us that the only proper way to learn about meditation or psi is to do it for ourselves, yet you wish to be spoon-fed QM? Good grief! Were I to follow your example, I'd tell you to go crack open a science textbook and think I'd made a convincing case.
But really, the whole "human mind can influence quantum events" nonsense comes from a misunderstanding of the word "observer." In QM, and "observer" is really any particle that interacts with the one in question. It need not be conscious, or even alive. And all that happens is that a particle's wave function "collapses" (how depends upon the interaction), rather than the observation making any changes to the particle.| What would you consider as evidence for in other planes reality fluctuations? So let me try and give you the evidence that want to read and then scrutinize to your delight ;) |
I don't even know what you mean by the term. How can there be any other reality other than what is real? Why don't you describe this "other reality" in sufficient detail for me to be able to understand it, and then I'll be able to tell you what kind of evidence would suffice for me to agree that it is, in fact, real.| Physical reality is an illusion what is an atom basically energy... connecting the dots. |
Energy is a part of physical reality, there is nothing illusory about it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 20:31:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Nightwolf
quantum science vs paranormal its the same just different ways to describe it. I have no arguments with either because its saying tomato or tomaato... same thing. I just have looked in both to see it in both lenses and have a better understanding. |
You just said they're the same thing, so why would you need to look at both?| Now listen its understanding not knowing the detail its the difference between wisdom and intelligence. |
And you are demonstrating an understanding of things that are patently false.| Physical reality is an illusion there is evidence all over the place... basically that an atom is energy and E=mc^2 means that matter and energy is exchangeable... now ask yourselves the age old question which game first the chicken or the egg... but instead if those terms us energy or matter. ;) |
Easy question: energy came first. We know that because of the physical evidence it left behind.
Oh, also: the egg came first. Another softball question. Got any more? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Nightwolf
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 20:35:10 [Permalink]
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I never said I had Black-and-White views I was only posting a different idea think of it not as a view but more of a what-if. Apparently some of the skeptic friends network cant handle that, thankfully I dont live in the middle ages where it would have been a burning at the stake or a hanging... or I dont know what else but that what people did back then when they got offended.
Well Dave it shows that you cant find your calm remember I wasnt trying to be insulting or offensive even arrogant was one of the things I wasnt trying to ask you a question but you believe that I am being arrogant I am a bit skeptical on that please give me the scientific evidence to back that one up. That is a belief the only scientific fact is what I have type anything else is your belief. So as I said it before I dont mean to offend anyone. Even you Dave but you seem to have taken it as you duty to scruitize every letter I write, its fine with me though. Scruitize away, I learn more about you that way. Oh and Dave you still havent answer those question you basically called me closed me closed minded and arrogant.
Kil did you notice my second posting after that? Even Einstine knew that matter and energy were interchangable, the illusion is that most people keep on believing is that the physical reality is the only reality that exist.
Peace,
Nightwolf |
Some people take Skepticism is a religion. It isn't its to question everything till ultimately finding the truth. If that is your case then we are on the same path then. |
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Nightwolf
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 20:39:51 [Permalink]
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Dave what you said about "You just said they're the same thing, so why would you need to look at both?" means that you choose to be ignorant is that correct in my interpretation of your words or am I mistaken?
In the other dimensions false and right dont really exist... but you wouldnt know that because of what you said previously if I understood it correctly again.
Ok Dave heres a hard boiled one ;) The real age old question what is the meaning of life?
Peace,
Nightwolf |
Some people take Skepticism is a religion. It isn't its to question everything till ultimately finding the truth. If that is your case then we are on the same path then. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 20:40:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Also, you keep ignoring that I have done what you have suggested... |
I don't think he can acknowledge it. It would mean that someone has done as he asked and come to a different conclusion than he did, and so he doesn't necessarily have the right answer. Note that he didn't actually acknowledge my years of meditation, either - he just asked what "kind" I used to do (as if it must have been only one "kind," to boot). I think he's in waaay over his head, and doesn't know how to get out (not without giving us the last word). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 20:43:06 [Permalink]
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Nightwolf:
Kil did you notice my second posting after that? Even Einstine knew that matter and energy were interchangable, the illusion is that most people keep on believing is that the physical reality is the only reality that exist. |
But didn't you say that even scientists agree that reality is an illusion? So which is it? Does physical reality exist or not? You just can't have it both ways...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Nightwolf
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 20:44:46 [Permalink]
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Actually I did acknowledged it, Dave but as I had stated before that only changes the brain wave patterns, have you ever done any kind of energy work? I dont care about the famous last word actually I am here to have an intellectual conversation.
Peace,
Nightwolf |
Some people take Skepticism is a religion. It isn't its to question everything till ultimately finding the truth. If that is your case then we are on the same path then. |
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Nightwolf
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 20:46:36 [Permalink]
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I said that with the intent meaning that, in its principle its just energy not physical reality as Dave said its the "observer" that we must understand better.
Peace,
Nightwolf |
Some people take Skepticism is a religion. It isn't its to question everything till ultimately finding the truth. If that is your case then we are on the same path then. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 20:49:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Nightwolf
I never said I had Black-and-White views I was only posting a different idea think of it not as a view but more of a what-if. |
You only offered two choices, and asked me to pick one or the other.| Apparently some of the skeptic friends network cant handle that... |
I'm all for hypothetical questions, if you can pose them.| ...thankfully I dont live in the middle ages where it would have been a burning at the stake or a hanging... or I dont know what else but that what people did back then when they got offended. |
Ah, and now come the insinuations that I am an Inquisitor. When all else fails, demonize your opponent: is that what they teach you in the psi books?| Well Dave it shows that you cant find your calm... |
When was I ever not calm? What gave you that bizarre impression?| ...remember I wasnt trying to be insulting or offensive even arrogant was one of the things I wasnt trying to ask you a question but you believe that I am being arrogant I am a bit skeptical on that please give me the scientific evidence to back that one up. |
You've supplied the evidence yourself. I went over it already.| That is a belief the only scientific fact is what I have type anything else is your belief. |
What?| So as I said it before I dont mean to offend anyone. |
Did I say I was offended again?| Even you Dave but you seem to have taken it as you duty to scruitize every letter I write, its fine with me though. Scruitize away, I learn more about you that way. |
No, you're learning what you want to know about me. You think I'm not calm and my posts to you have been out of some sort of "duty." You're wrong on both, but you seem unable to dissuade yourself from thinking that you cannot be wrong.| Oh and Dave you still havent answer those question you basically called me closed me closed minded and arrogant. |
I've answered every question you've asked me. I think you've skipped some of mine, though.| Even Einstine knew that matter and energy were interchangable, the illusion is that most people keep on believing is that the physical reality is the only reality that exist. |
Einstein worked under the assumption that physical reality is the only reality that exists. It is you who labor under the incorrect assumption that energy isn't a part of physical reality. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 21:01:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Nightwolf
Dave what you said about "You just said they're the same thing, so why would you need to look at both?" means that you choose to be ignorant is that correct in my interpretation of your words or am I mistaken? |
You're very mistaken. If two things are the same, looking at both of them doesn't add any information. How could that be choosing to be ignorant? If knowledge of one gives me knowledge of the other, then looking at both simply wastes my time.| In the other dimensions false and right dont really exist... but you wouldnt know that because of what you said previously if I understood it correctly again. |
No, I don't know it because I have no idea of what these "other dimensions" are that you speak of. Dimensions, after all, are simply independent variables within reality. People regularly deal with problems with many dimensions (predicting the weather requires over a hundred). If you'll specify which "other dimensions" you're talking about, I'll be able to discuss them with you. So long as you keep them secret, I won't (obviously).| Ok Dave heres a hard boiled one ;) The real age old question what is the meaning of life? |
The meaning of your life is whatever meaning you choose to give it, Nightwolf. There is no one answer, nor can there be. Try to ask a hard question next time. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Psychic Update: not so psychic
