Skeptic Friends Network

Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?
Home | Forums | Active Topics | Active Polls | Register | FAQ | Contact Us  
  Connect: Chat | SFN Messenger | Buddy List | Members
Personalize: Profile | My Page | Forum Bookmarks  
 All Forums
 Our Skeptic Forums
 Conspiracy Theories
 Plane? or no plane?
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 4

Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2004 :  19:09:09  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
http://911truthla.org/#Main

Is there any possibility these people are thinking clearly?

I had always put the lesser damage (compared to the WTC impacts) down to the Pentagon being more or less a bunker.

Thoughts?
[Moved to the Conspiracy Theories folder - Dave W.]

Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth

H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2004 :  19:20:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Thoughts?



I think its entirely bogus. They state on the bottom of that page: "Ultimately, you must decide for yourself, on whether there is evidence that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon."

That is a big warning siren right there. Every group that has shady evidence for their viewpoint (creationists, ufologists, new age healers, moon hoax advocates, etc.) always appeals directly to non-experts. If they had any case at all, architects and engineers would have been crying foul to the newspapers a long time ago.

This is JFK all over again. The day after the tragedy, everyone was certain what had happened. Give it a few decades, no one will know.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/16/2004 20:45:42
Go to Top of Page

satans_mom
Skeptic Friend

USA
148 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2004 :  19:32:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send satans_mom an AOL message  Send satans_mom a Yahoo! Message Send satans_mom a Private Message
I'd have to agree with H. Humbert. I couldn't imagine that the government tells us everything. That would be completely unrealistic. However, it gives us enough to leave everyone confused. And just like I don't believe they leave out the truth, I don't think all information that is released are lies. There is a lot of complicated and contradictive evidence in everything. I wouldn't limit that fact to be more prevalent in politics, but because what the government decides has such a big impact on the American lifesthyle, we'd be more likely to be very curious as to why it's so difficult to answer questions. This is only relavent to a portion of the American populace... I do believe that many Americans don't seem to have the capability of having minds of their owns.

Did you read the one comment? The poster, Heather, is quite a keen girl. She'll have you asking more questions than the video, that's for sure. She's a criminal investigator.

Yo mama's so fat, she's on both sides of the family.

Edited by - satans_mom on 09/16/2004 19:48:02
Go to Top of Page

Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2004 :  19:35:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
The thing that seems interesting is the lack of debris.

I'm not advocating their side.... but that does seem to stand out as an interesting question. Could it have all been vaporized in the impact when the feul went up?

Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
Go to Top of Page

satans_mom
Skeptic Friend

USA
148 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2004 :  19:50:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send satans_mom an AOL message  Send satans_mom a Yahoo! Message Send satans_mom a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

The thing that seems interesting is the lack of debris.

I'm not advocating their side.... but that does seem to stand out as an interesting question. Could it have all been vaporized in the impact when the feul went up?



I think you should read the one comment. The poster observes that the "crash site" in the video looks nothing like the "crash site" in the official government videos. I noticed there was spray painting on the wall in the video that said, "No Parking!" but in the other videos that wasn't there. Could be that is just damage done by the plane on another side of the building, possibly from explosions on the inside. I'm no expert, though, but I can't stop asking questions. And I'm not going to believe anything anymore.

Yo mama's so fat, she's on both sides of the family.

Go to Top of Page

Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2004 :  21:14:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
Friend of mine works for Virginia DOT, says he has pics(from first responders) of the site, and that there was alot of plane debris at the site.

...

Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
Go to Top of Page

Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9680 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2004 :  23:00:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

The thing that seems interesting is the lack of debris.

I'm not advocating their side.... but that does seem to stand out as an interesting question. Could it have all been vaporized in the impact when the feul went up?

A friend of mine told me about a plane-crash somewhere in the states, where a 737 (or a similar plane of that size) crashed. It had a near vertical trajectory when impacting a field. Most of the debris were forced underground by the impact, so when the rescue crew came to the site, they thought it was a Cessna. It wasn't until an expert identified some pieces of debris to be exclusively Boeing 737 they realised this was a major crash site.

Unfortunately I can't say for sure if this story is true, I think my friend said it was on the Discovery Channel. If you find corroborating stories, please do tell.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
Go to Top of Page

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2004 :  02:07:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
The questions I have are:

Why would some entity try to fake such a thing and how did they time it so well?

Aren't conspiricy speculations fun?


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Go to Top of Page

Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2004 :  06:10:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

http://911truthla.org/#Main

Is there any possibility these people are thinking clearly?

I had always put the lesser damage (compared to the WTC impacts) down to the Pentagon being more or less a bunker.

Thoughts?



This bullshit theory has been discussed in detail here

http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2712

I've also seen this video recently. The hole they show is the 10 foot wide exit hole in C-ring, not the 40 foot hole in E-ring.

(edit to correct outer ring designation)

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 09/17/2004 06:18:58
Go to Top of Page

furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2004 :  06:10:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message
Damn, this country does love a good conspiracy!

Here is a good site with a large number of eye witnesses.

http://www.dragonslair.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/77/ffdd.html



If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
Go to Top of Page

BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2004 :  08:35:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Nice find there, I was having trouble with this on another forum site. Thanks

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
Go to Top of Page

Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2004 :  12:20:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
H. Humbert:

quote:
I think its entirely bogus. They state on the bottom of that page: "Ultimately, you must decide for yourself, on whether there is evidence that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon."

That is a big warning siren right there. Every group that has shady evidence for their viewpoint (creationists, ufologists, new age healers, moon hoax advocates, etc.) always appeals directly to non-experts. If they had any case at all, architects and engineers would have been crying foul to the newspapers a long time ago.



While I agree, all the things you listed tries to appeal to non-experts. However the quote, "you must decide for yourself", is that not exactly what being a skeptic is? Taking in all the evidence and deciding for yourself?

To satans_mom:

quote:
There is a lot of complicated and contradictive evidence in everything.


I disagree, I don't think there is. If it seems like contradictive evidence, then what you most likely have is a bad theory which explains that evidence and you need to search for a new one.

On the lack of debris, I see multiple explanations:

1.) Vaporization
2.) Dispersal of debris
3.) The "appearance" of less debris

1.) What temperature does the material in the plane vaporize? I would expect it to be very high, so I don't think that this could be large enough to vaporize a large amount of material. Maybe just specifically around the fuel tanks?

2.) As said before, the pentagon is pretty much a bunker. It was built to be strong. You throw an egg into a wall and pieces go flying everywhere. Is there a reason this doesn't happen when a plane hits a building? Also, the debris, as noted before can go underground. How far out was the debris field around the pentagon? Or was there one?

3.) In a crash scene, especially with a lot of smoke like the one in the video, there can be an appearance of very little debris when there is actually more. If the plane material had melted, it would also appear to be a lot less than is actually there.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
Go to Top of Page

H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2004 :  13:13:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
While I agree, all the things you listed tries to appeal to non-experts. However the quote, "you must decide for yourself", is that not exactly what being a skeptic is? Taking in all the evidence and deciding for yourself?

Yes, but the key is "taking in all the evidence." To truly do that for myself, I would need to spend several years getting degrees in structural engineering, aerodynamics and ballistics. Only then would I have the proper background to evaluate such claims.

Since I have neither the time nor inclination to do either, I must defer to the judgements of experts. Like I said earlier, if credible and respected sources were in an uproar, one would have grounds for their skepticism. This is not the case here.

Perhaps one of the biggest myths I see perpetrated in America is that everyone's opinion matters. It doesn't. I know that about myself. I know when I'm unqualified to judge something. Most people do not. Most don't enough know enough to know that they don't know enough. They think if they they see a program, say, questioning the veracity of the U.S. moon landing, then NASA must answer the charges. They think they deserve answers. That of course is false. The first step is always to investigate whether the charges have any merit. If not, they can be dismissed.

Science works by being prodded with questions, but only intelligent ones. Ask the wrong questions and you will not get satisfactory answers. For instance, "How can monkeys come from mud by chance?" is a nonsense question, so the answer "They can't" is totally irrelevant.

Science, especially highly technical science, most often cannot be adequately examined by non-professionals. Most information the public recieves is second- or third-hand and highly filtered. The fault in reasoning is not realizing this and assuming that what you are being presented represents all the relevent facts or a consensus opinion.

I'm not saying never to question things, obviously. But I do find myself heavily reliant upon experts. I trust not in them as individuals, but in them collectively. I have no choice but to believe that, through them, the truth will out. In short, there are many things about which I have no qualifications "to decide for myself," and so shouldn't.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/17/2004 13:17:53
Go to Top of Page

Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2004 :  13:46:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

http://911truthla.org/#Main

Is there any possibility these people are thinking clearly?

I had always put the lesser damage (compared to the WTC impacts) down to the Pentagon being more or less a bunker.

Thoughts


Neat little film. The problem, though, with all these conspiracy theories for the Pentagon crach on Sept. 11 is that they ignore the deaths of the 64 people on the plane. (A list of those 64 people can be found here.)

So which is easier to explain? As of yet, I have heard nothing about how the conspiracies deal with these deaths. Yet doubtless their families, friends, and co-workers could all vouch for the fact that they're gone. In addition, I'm sure airline records of boarding passes issued, etc. would confirm that they were there. Are we to think that in addition to someone shooting a missle at the Pentagon, they also duped 64 people into thinking they were getting on a plane and then somehow killing them in secret?

The reality is this: because our knowledge of what it would look like if a big 757 crashed into a giant concrete-reinforced building is right around zero, the likely explaination of why the evidence at the crash site doesn't match what expect to be there isn't that the crash didn't happen. Rather, it's because we actually have no idea what to expect when a big 757 crashes into a giant concrete-reinforced building.
Go to Top of Page

H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2004 :  14:01:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
The reality is this: because our knowledge of what it would look like if a big 757 crashed into a giant concrete-reinforced building is right around zero, the likely explaination of why the evidence at the crash site doesn't match what expect to be there isn't that the crash didn't happen. Rather, it's because we actually have no idea what to expect when a big 757 crashes into a giant concrete-reinforced building.


Exactly!


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/17/2004 14:02:00
Go to Top of Page

beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2004 :  15:35:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
I'm not sure why anyone is even discussing this. So the pictures have this or that, so what? There's a face on Mars if you just look at one image. You have to take all the evidence, not just some person's distorted interpretation of the image.

American Airlines Flight 77 had passengers and a crew. The relatives of the passengers would have to all be paid actors. It took off from an airport where folks would have said, hey there wasn't any flight 77 that day. What about American Air employees? Were they in on it too?

Eyewitnesses always have discrepant memories of what they saw from a little plane to 'no wings'. That evidence is meaningless.

I think the most far fetched conspiracy you could get out of this is the Bush admin. knew about it and let it happen. And, that conspiracy is so much less likely than the admin. could have known but was incompetent that it isn't even worth considering.

What nonsense the human mind comes up with!
Edited by - beskeptigal on 09/17/2004 15:36:18
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 4 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Jump To:

The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact, and we invite active participation by our members to create a skeptical community with a wide variety of viewpoints and expertise.


Home | Skeptic Forums | Skeptic Summary | The Kil Report | Creation/Evolution | Rationally Speaking | Skeptillaneous | About Skepticism | Fan Mail | Claims List | Calendar & Events | Skeptic Links | Book Reviews | Gift Shop | SFN on Facebook | Staff | Contact Us

Skeptic Friends Network
© 2008 Skeptic Friends Network Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.19 seconds.
Powered by @tomic Studio
Snitz Forums 2000