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 Tool use observed in monkeys(not apes)
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2004 :  13:58:11  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4083517.stm

Another notch for cognitive evolution.

Huge news as far as im concerned, previously it was only apes, Of course ravens and otters as well.

Anyone know of others? I guess nest building doesnt count, but what about beaver dams?

Edit: http://www.pigeon.psy.tufts.edu/psych26/tools.htm
http://canis.tamu.edu/wfscCourses/Concepts/Task22JA.html
http://www.geocities.com/Omegaman_UK/beasts.html
other tool use

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini

Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 12/09/2004 14:02:53

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2004 :  14:30:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Some time ago, I read about tool use in macques. I hadn't heard of it in capuchins.

The above site wasn't the one I was looking for. That described the behavior in the field.

Edited: tool use in birds is fairly common in crows, and even one of Darwin's finches uses a cactus spine to dig for grubs. And the Egyption vulture throws stones at ostrich eggs to break them open. My favorite is the break-bone bird, another vulture. It soars high over a boulder field and drops fresh bones on to the rocks to crack them so it can get at the marrow.

Edited again-- I wuz in a hurry the last time. The break-bone bird is actually the bearded vulture(Gypaetus barbatus). "Break-bone" is a local name for it and a much more descriptive one than 'bearded.'.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 12/09/2004 15:13:52
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend

220 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2004 :  14:33:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Rubicon95 a Private Message
I wouldn't call it a notch for cognitive evolution. Tool usage among primates is well known. Chimpanzees utilize reeds to obtain ants or the famous Chimp builds a ladder to get to the bananas. Squirrels are very good problem solvers.

It's the abstract thought that would be great to see. Creativity!

Now this is interesting. http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/12/08/gorilla.wake.ap/index.html

Reminds me of Koko.

"People talking at movie shows
People smoking in bed
People voting Republican
Give them Boot to the Head" The Frantics
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2004 :  09:34:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Your missing the point rubi, this is monkies, gorrillas and chimps are apes and are generally considered smarter than monkies.

Oh and I swiped the 'notch for cognitive evolution' from the article.

Oh did anyone see that special where they were teaching the chimps to read? Good stuff, they also determined the apes could identify particular sounds of the other apes, meaning they have a language. However primitive.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2004 :  10:03:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
Good stuff, they also determined the apes could identify particular sounds of the other apes, meaning they have a language


Many species can identify sounds. I can't remember exactly what species these were, but there were two, a bird and something else. The bird would look out for the other species, I believe in return for food. If the bird saw one predator (such as a snake) coming, it would make one sound, if the bird saw another predator, it would make a different sound.

But I wouldn't call this a language. Give it at least a few more million years, and then we might just see one develope.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2004 :  10:51:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
Horses have a wide array of sounds they use to communicate with each other (although most of time they use body language). They can recognise their herdmate's 'voices', and a foal can identify the mother's 'voice', as well as the exact message she's passing. Or at least, that's what they say. I don't know true that is, or how complex, though. Same with wolves.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend

220 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2004 :  10:55:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Rubicon95 a Private Message
BPS,
Spider monkees can be trained to use tools. I'd say it stands to reason that wild monkees can figure out how to get food.

Problem solving is a survival mechanism. Octopus have it as well.

There was a TLC episode on this subject of problem solving. There was a crow/raven who was robbing ice fishers. The raven noticed that when the flag went up, the man got a fish at the end of the line. So when the man wasn't there and the flag went up, it pulled the rope up and got the fish. It was cool watching it. It pulled the rope length by lengh. Incredible!

Oh I saw that the cognitive comment came from the article. A little too late. :\ DOH! Smack! (echo)

"People talking at movie shows
People smoking in bed
People voting Republican
Give them Boot to the Head" The Frantics
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2004 :  11:19:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Training them to use tools is a differnt :) still cool but not exactly natural evolution.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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verlch
SFN Regular

781 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2004 :  21:41:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send verlch an AOL message Send verlch a Private Message
The other day I saw a fish build a bicycle! Another spoke in the wheel of evolution.

What came first the chicken or the egg?

How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?

There are no atheists in foxholes

Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4

II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!

Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?

Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.

We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.

"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
Edited by - verlch on 12/10/2004 21:47:09
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2004 :  01:18:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
The other day I saw a fish build a bicycle! Another spoke in the wheel of evolution.


Was that before or after you took a hit of PCP? (and before or after you made that post )

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2004 :  02:24:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by verlch

The other day I saw a fish build a bicycle! Another spoke in the wheel of evolution.

One of these got tired of walking, eh? I figgered that might happen sooner or later.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 12/11/2004 03:34:44
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26004 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2004 :  19:41:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

One of these got tired of walking, eh? I figgered that might happen sooner or later.
That is freaky-cool. What's it called?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2004 :  20:05:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

quote:
Originally posted by filthy

One of these got tired of walking, eh? I figgered that might happen sooner or later.
That is freaky-cool. What's it called?

It's called a sea robin, I don't have the Latin at hand. They're found all along the east coast and I have caught many fishing not far off shore. They're quite good eating, although not many people do.

They are strong swimmers, but mostly they spend their time crawling along the bottom on 'legs' evolved from a part of the pectoral fin. Their food is shrimps, small fish, small crabs and so forth -- the usual for a fish that averages perhaps a little over a pound of so in weight.

I agree: cool fish, but the pic doesn't do it justice. They're very colorful, a sort of mottled orange and red. Some I've seen were brillent.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26004 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2004 :  21:36:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Cool! The only time I'd ever heard the term "sea robin" before was in the B-52's Rock Lobster. Let's see if Google is our friend...

Nifty! this page tells us:
Sea Robins are distinguished by the three free rays of the pectoral fins, with which the fish can actually walk across the bottom. They make frog-like croaking sounds when disturbed. Sea Robins have razor sharp gill covers and spines, and are best left alone - there's not much meat on them anyway.
Here's a bunch of other stuff I found with Google:Except for that last one, it's really difficult to find a photo of a brightly-colored sea robin (and even the last is mostly drab). Are the orange or red ones rare?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2004 :  00:28:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
Some make it sound like a frog, others seem to look like a butterfly, and still others almost look like a flatworm (or at least the head). A very cool fish indeed.

[insert fish pun here]

(I couldn't think of any new ones...)

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26004 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2004 :  00:39:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Ricky wrote:
quote:
[insert fish pun here]
Well, you might sea robin if you look at a downtown riot. And if you wing fish at the looters, they might kill you. Put your head on a pike, even. Tang you, I'll be here all week...

Hey, I just realized that if a shelf falls over, librarians will be very careful to avoid walking on their spines. Kinda makes them the anti-sea robins, no?

Geishas, on the other hand, often walk on spines which aren't theirs. There's something fishy about that.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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