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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 01/20/2005 : 23:05:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
On the other hand, I would wonder how those same people deal with cleptomaniacs. I mean people whose brain chemistry compels them to steal things. Would they really say that being a theif isn't a choice, but acting like a thief is?
Good question. I would imagine that in the case of cleptomaniacs, christians would note they have a mental disorder that supersedes that person's free will in the form of an uncontrollable compulsion. That isn't the case with homosexuality, though, even if the christian believes homosexuality to be akin to a mental illness.
Hmm, sounds like they'd have to give "sex addicts" a free pass though... 
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/20/2005 23:07:17 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2005 : 05:26:07 [Permalink]
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| I understand the motivation behind saying that it might not be a choice, but then what do if we find out it isn't? Or if there's something else that we want to be allowed that we know is a choice? No, better to be consistent and tell those that believe in fairy tales that they're the ones with the problem. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2005 : 05:54:58 [Permalink]
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The Nation has put up this cartoon: Babe Lincoln.
Not in the best of taste perhaps, but it gave me a chuckle.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2005 : 14:10:51 [Permalink]
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Just found this at Buzzflash; Gore Vidal's take on it. quote:
As a schoolboy I read most of Carl Sandburg's six-volume biography of Abraham Lincoln. Sandburg was a poet-performer, and I tended to skip his rhapsodic passages, thus missing some key points. Even so, I was sufficiently drawn to his Lincoln … well, to be precise, there is no Sandburg Lincoln, only a sort of grab bag of anecdotes, a do-it-yourself folklore Lincoln, using material that, with time's passage, has been more and more rejected by those scholar squirrels who are always in attendance upon the Lincoln brigade's stern academic icon-dusters. Eventually, I came to write my own Lincoln, dealing with the master politician as a counterbalance to the folksy figure so beloved of apolitical chroniclers, particularly in the early part of the 20th century, when the sex life of a Mount Rushmoreite was taboo and speculation was neither encouraged nor pursued by those with tenure rather than truth in mind. The Second World War changed everything. Over 13 million American males served in Europe, the Pacific, and, most exotic of all, that unknown land the United States of America, which suddenly became a place of sexual marvels unknown to previous generations. But then, in 1945, when much of the war ended, we were abruptly translated from the Land of Oz back to dreary—even bloody—Kansas, not to mention Indiana, where one Alfred C. Kinsey was scientifically analyzing our intimations and dreams of Oz as well as who did what sexually and why. Among Kinsey's researchers was C. A. Tripp, who had become interested in the sexuality of our greatest president, but I am now ahead of our story.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2005 : 19:58:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
I understand the motivation behind saying that it might not be a choice, but then what do if we find out it isn't? Or if there's something else that we want to be allowed that we know is a choice? No, better to be consistent and tell those that believe in fairy tales that they're the ones with the problem.
Think of it in this way. Pick a food that you don't like, something that turns your stomach at the thought of eating it. Sardines, liver, eggs, and Checkers(tm) (a fast-food resturant for those who don't have them in your area) all fit the bill for me.
Set any of those on a plate in front of me and yes, it is my "choice" to eat them or not.
But is it my choice to dislike them?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2005 : 05:06:26 [Permalink]
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| You've never changed your tastes over the years? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2005 : 16:01:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
You've never changed your tastes over the years?
Where the four items I mentioned are concerned, I have been adverse to consuming them for as long as I can remember. (and I have memories from the time I was around 8 or 9 months old, prob because I could walk and talk)
I assure you, with regard to eggs, sardines, liver, and Checkers food... it is not a "choice" to dislike them.
To reverse the question: You are, I'm guessing, heterosexual. Are you saying that it is your "choice" to be so? That you sat down one day and decided to be straight as opposed to gay?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2005 : 17:23:29 [Permalink]
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| I think it was very much part of my upbringing, but all that is speculation. It is immaterial. It doesn't matter if it's a choice or not. So what if it is or it isn't? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2005 : 23:48:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think it was very much part of my upbringing, but all that is speculation. It is immaterial. It doesn't matter if it's a choice or not. So what if it is or it isn't?
It is relevent in the context of the argument used by the fundies in opposition of equal rights for gay people. They claim it is a choice, and only a choice, therefore gay people are nothing more than willfull sinners.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2005 : 05:12:53 [Permalink]
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| The point is, to hell with the fundies. Let's hope it is a choice and celebrate it! |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 22:37:48 [Permalink]
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| Why "hope it is a choice?" Is there something wrong with homosexuality that it's less desirable that it be more nature than nurture? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2005 : 14:59:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Hmm, sounds like they'd have to give "sex addicts" a free pass though...
Yeah, as long as they "do it" within wedlock. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2005 : 15:21:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Why "hope it is a choice?"
Why, to piss the fundies off! |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2005 : 16:15:28 [Permalink]
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You'll have to 'splain that one to me. Why don't you like choices? Are choices less desirable than nature?
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Why "hope it is a choice?" Is there something wrong with homosexuality that it's less desirable that it be more nature than nurture?
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Topic Locked
