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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2005 :  08:13:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by verlch

quote:
Originally posted by Dude

quote:
Homosexuality as abortions are choices


unsupported assertion #1009 from you verlch.

What, besides your own opinion, do you have that supports the idea that homosexuality is a "choice"?

There IS evidence that suggests it is a heritable trait.

Once again you let your ignorance and intolerance override reason and evidence.






More wishful thinking! Evidence has not been brought in that most of these boys are raised as girls. A boy with a strong "man" as a father is not going to lay with men. Unless he so desires that. Gay men usually die after about 60. Married men live much longer. We are designed to love and care for women and a family. The puzzle peices fit togetther perfectly.

If you want to be gay be gay. Just don't let your left wing socilist teachers in my family tell my children.

You might as well as say, with your foot on the bible, "Gay lifestyle is ok." "There is nothing wrong with laying with men." "You need to accept all sexual preferences of mankind."

Rubbish, nobody needs that in their faces. Keep it on the back burner, mind your fucking business and I'll mind my own fucking business. If any of my family or friends are gay, I still love you, I would never turn my back on you for your choices.



Thou cup of ignorance runneth over.

Linkage of markers on Xq28 to male homosexuality

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8332896&dopt=Abstract


Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2005 :  10:35:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
Although how he gets past the hebrew word meaning ritualistic sin in the passage instead of physical sin is comical.



Even more comical is how he (and those like him) decide to ignore almost all the rest of the "levitical code".

I mean, right next to the men laying with men thing is something about stoning people who work on the sabbath, and killing children who get to uppity with their parents...

If one verse is the "word of god", then how can the next verse not be? And, therefore, how can these fundie freaks not be outraged by the millions of people who commit a CAPITOL sin by working on the sabbath?

Sadly, as many times as you point out the inconsistency, they never seem to even acknowlege it.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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victoriahorrocks
New Member

1 Post

Posted - 01/19/2005 :  19:08:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send victoriahorrocks a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Storm

Was Abe Lincoln gay? That is what they were debating on MSNBC today. I guess a new book came out claiming he had homosexual tendencies? Anyone else here of this?

Do you mean "Anyone else hear of this?"
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dv82matt
SFN Regular

760 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2005 :  19:29:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dv82matt a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by victoriahorrocks
Do you mean "Anyone else hear of this?"

I'm sure she did.

Welcome, by the way.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2005 :  19:41:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by victoriahorrocks

Do you mean "Anyone else hear of this?"
Well, that's certainly a unique sort of first post.

Welcome, Victoria, to the SFN.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  08:15:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by victoriahorrocks

quote:
Originally posted by Storm

Was Abe Lincoln gay? That is what they were debating on MSNBC today. I guess a new book came out claiming he had homosexual tendencies? Anyone else here of this?

Do you mean "Anyone else hear of this?"



Welcome, Victoria. We're pretty lax on insisting on correct spelling here as quite a few of our posters are not native English speakers. As long as the intent is clear, we really don't mind.

So, do you have anything to say about the subject of the post?

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  12:49:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Hi Victoria, and welcome. Hops youce injoys th firem.

I cound never figure out the logic behind "homosexuality is a choise." Think about it; it's an awful choice if only due to the social stigma attached. It's also a choice that can get one killed by the more rabid of the homophobes (the real faggots, whom I suspect have more sexual hangups than the late Maplethorpe), as we read of every now and then. Who in their right mind would go with it, if it were a choice?

Phelps, Falwell, et al. prove themselves to be more full of shit with each passing hour.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  12:52:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Well, Filthy, smoking and overeating and stealing and a lot of other things are choices, but they're not particularly healthy. Not that I equate homosexuality with any of these things, just saying that choices are sometimes not easily understood, but they are still choices.

Again, I have to say, so what if it is a choice? Why is it an issue at all?

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  12:57:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Storm

Was Abe Lincoln gay? That is what they were debating on MSNBC today. I guess a new book came out claiming he had homosexual tendencies? Anyone else here of this?

That would explain the top hat.

-Chaloobi

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Wendy
SFN Regular

USA
614 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  12:58:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Wendy a Yahoo! Message Send Wendy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

Again, I have to say, so what if it is a choice? Why is it an issue at all?

On this, Gorgo, we agree. Ain't nobody's business if they do.

Edited to include quote.

Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
Edited by - Wendy on 01/20/2005 13:00:49
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  20:04:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

Again, I have to say, so what if it is a choice? Why is it an issue at all?
You'll have to think about the issue from a Christian point-of-view to answer this question. According to God, homosexuals are sinners, so it must be the case that homosexuality is a result of "free will," because God would never be so heartless as to damn a person for his/her biology. Nor is it possible that any Biblical author lie about what God thinks is sinful.

And yeah, there is some sarcasm in the above statements. After all, the sins of the father carry over to his children (for some generations), and we're all born with "original sin" thanks to the curious pair in Eden. But discussing that sort of Christian hypocrisy is for another thread, I think.

Anyway, suffice it to say that conservative Christians require the idea, "homosexuality is a choice," to be true in order to keep the Bible as tidy as possible.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  21:06:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Anyway, suffice it to say that conservative Christians require the idea, "homosexuality is a choice," to be true in order to keep the Bible as tidy as possible.
Not necessarily. I've heard some (mostly Roman Catholics) that think regardless of whether the cause of homosexual attraction is biological or environmental, the "choice" part comes in on acting on those desires. All sin (sin as defined in their minds) is attractive to some degree, otherwise no one would ever be tempted to sin. Homosexuals simply have another cross to bear...they desire something which is a sin and cannot have. Is it an unfair affliction? Surely, but so is polio or cancer or whatever other "tests" god slings in our path.

For a christian, a homosexual either must marry a woman and bear children, even if it makes him unhappy, or remain celebate. I knew one super smart kid in HS who I learned was enrolling in the seminary. I was super pissed--I mean this kid was smart, top of the class, free scholarships from top schools...and he wanted to piss his life away on that crap we were forced to learn in Sunday school? It didn't make sense to me. It just seemed such a waste. Last I heard, he dropped out after a few years and announced he was gay. I couldn't have been happier for him, but still felt bad thinking about what that poor bastard must have put himself through.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/20/2005 21:16:08
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  21:46:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Not necessarily. I've heard some (mostly Roman Catholics) that think regardless of whether the cause of homosexual attraction is biological or environmental, the "choice" part comes in on acting on those desires. All sin (sin as defined in their minds) is attractive to some degree, otherwise no one would ever be tempted to sin. Homosexuals simply have another cross to bear...they desire something which is a sin and cannot have. Is it an unfair affliction? Surely, but so is polio or cancer or whatever other "tests" god slings in our path.
Polio and cancer aren't "sins," though. And temptations are sourced from Satan, not from biology.

Keep in mind that everyone has been tempted to lie, disrespect his parents, steal, etc. at some point in their lives. And those Christians I've heard who've claimed to have turned a gay man into a straight man talk about "curing" him, which is not the language one typically hears regarding any other sin.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  21:58:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Polio and cancer aren't "sins," though. And temptations are sourced from Satan, not from biology.

I never said they were sins, I said they were tests (as in "of faith"). And christians most certainly do believe that god tests them, otherwise they would never be able to explain the book of Job. You can also say that christians believe that Satan tempts man through biology...what might be termed "weaknesses of the flesh." The urge to engage in sexual intercourse is biology. Satan might suggest that you fulfill that urge with your neighbor's wife, however. It isn't the biological urges themselves that are the sin, but how or sometimes whether we choose to "give in" to them.
quote:
Keep in mind that everyone has been tempted to lie, disrespect his parents, steal, etc. at some point in their lives. And those Christians I've heard who've claimed to have turned a gay man into a straight man talk about "curing" him, which is not the language one typically hears regarding any other sin.

And those christians are clinging to a fallacy. Homosexuality isn't a choice in the sense they mean. I was merely pointing out that even if you could convince those individuals that homosexual tendancies were purely biological, you haven't circumvented the whole "choice" dilemma entirely. As I explained, there are those who already accept that being gay isn't a choice. It's the acting gay they they will not tolerate. How do you change that mindset?


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/20/2005 22:09:11
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2005 :  22:42:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

As I explained, there are those who already accept that being gay isn't a choice. It's the acting gay they they will not tolerate. How do you change that mindset?
Good question. Perhaps one starts by finding out if they "act" hetero only because they think that it's sinful to act upon their real desires. [wink, wink]

On the other hand, I would wonder how those same people deal with cleptomaniacs. I mean people whose brain chemistry compels them to steal things. Would they really say that being a theif isn't a choice, but acting like a thief is?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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