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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
 Posted - 09/14/2001 : 19:06:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
... It is obvious that in the eyes of the press and President Bush himself, that atheists and other non-religious persons do not exist in national tragedy.
I'm sorry that you've come to this conclusion. It seems obvious to me, however, that calling today a "Day of Prayer *and Remembrance*" was an invitation to nonbelievers also.
I am of the opinion that inclusion is important at this time...and I feel that those who do not carry a God belief should not feel excluded from remembering those who have been killed in this series of crimes. |
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theatheistknight
New Member
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2001 : 19:57:09 [Permalink]
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Don't get me wrong, I do mourn the loss of all those who lost their lives in this tragedy.
However, America should not be united by religion or hatred, but by the basic fact that we are humans, and we will not be brought down by these terrorists.
We see now, more than ever, that religion is a crutch.
"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Friedrich Nietzsche |
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2001 : 20:08:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Don't get me wrong, I do mourn the loss of all those who lost their lives in this tragedy.
I did not mean to imply that you feel differently...I apologize if you think I meant that.quote:
However, America should not be united by religion or hatred, but by the basic fact that we are humans, and we will not be brought down by these terrorists.
I agree with you with regard to 'hatred'...way too many people are using these events as a springboard for venting their own prejudices.
But for Americans who are believers, it is a natural (and necessary) rallying point to pray together at this time. This of course is in addition to the other unifying factor you mention.quote:
We see now, more than ever, that religion is a crutch.
I disagree with this opinion. |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2001 : 06:25:22 [Permalink]
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Zandermann,
I think that what is happening is that non-believers feel that they are not invited to mourn with the rest of the country because that public time of mourning is attached to prayer. Public prayer is a time when religious feel a psyco-spiritual bond that non-believers obviously cannot. Non-believers want to be a part of the community but feel that they are shut out.
Greg.
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comradebillyboy
Skeptic Friend
USA
188 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2001 : 08:37:05 [Permalink]
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recall that poppy bush said that athiests are not, really entitled to the same civil rights as believers and they are not really citizens of this "one nation under god" (i just read an article about this, it was around 1988 at o'hare airport). i presume the younger shrub, given his penchant for excessive public religiosity holds even more extreme views.
unfortunatly our un-elected president has theocratic tendencies and a fundamental disregaed for the first amendment.
comrade billyboy
Edited by - comradebillyboy on 09/15/2001 08:41:09 |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2001 : 08:41:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
unfortunatly our un-elected president has theocratic tendencies and a fundamental disregaed for the first amendment.
My biggest fear is that the terrorist attacks will be used as an excuse to attack the first amendment. Let's hope that it doesn't happen.
Greg.
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2001 : 16:18:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Zandermann,
I think that what is happening is that non-believers feel that they are not invited to mourn with the rest of the country because that public time of mourning is attached to prayer. Public prayer is a time when religious feel a psyco-spiritual bond that non-believers obviously cannot. Non-believers want to be a part of the community but feel that they are shut out.
Greg.
This is exactly the problem, thanks for pointing it out so well. I would like to commend one or two local news stations that have only advertised a *National Day of Rememberance* leaving off the *and Prayer*.
Inclusion of the *and Prayer* excludes, by necessity, those of us without faith from remembering and mourning those who are forever gone. By stating that those of faith will prove that love is stronger than hate - ignore those who live without faith.
There is a great tendancy among the religious leaders (many of whom were at the *Day of Prayer* services) to view Secular Humanitarians, Atheists, and Freethinkers as the enemy and anathema to their convictions. We are not necessarily against them, many times our goals are the same - tolerance and understanding - however, our reasons are different. They are not for the pursuit of some goal of going to heaven or doing good because it is our duty as christians. Our reasons are generally because we feel a true desire and need to help those around us simply because they're human.
Yet, the likes of Jerry Fallwell and Pat Robertson would blame us for this act. How would you like to be blamed for this?
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2001 : 16:50:39 [Permalink]
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I am sorry that some of you have wanted to feel excluded from the national day of mourning.
Although I am confused......I can certainly understand that you would feel excluded from the prayer service, but I haven't been able to figure out why you've extended that to the entire day.
quote:
... By stating that those of faith will prove that love is stronger than hate - ignore those who live without faith. ...
Please compare your interpretation of what was said with the original quote, beginning with "Those of us who are gathered here..."
Probably, in rereading it, you'll be able to come to the conclusion that there was no exclusion of those without belief, either implied or stated. They/you simply weren't part of the audience being addressed.
quote:
... There is a great tendancy among the religious leaders (many of whom were at the *Day of Prayer* services) to view Secular Humanitarians, Atheists, and Freethinkers as the enemy and anathema to their convictions. ...
I wish to comment on this in order to moderate it...it's the vocal few who hold this sort of view, but I don't believe it's the majority. Perhaps those of us who do not see secularists as enemies need to speak up more often, but we just don't get the same coverage as others.
And I have no comment whatsoever regarding Falwell/Robertson except to say that I am just as dismayed/disgusted/harmed/damned mad/etc as any other thinking person by them.
quote:
unfortunatly our un-elected president has theocratic tendencies and a fundamental disregaed for the first amendment.
However, I have to point out that Mr Bush is neither "un-elected" nor does he have a "disregard for the first amendment". He was, in fact, elected by the only body who has that power in our government (the electoral college), and he has neither worked toward establishing a state religion nor has he worked toward repressing free expression. |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2001 : 18:13:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
unfortunatly our un-elected president has theocratic tendencies and a fundamental disregaed for the first amendment.
My biggest fear is that the terrorist attacks will be used as an excuse to attack the first amendment. Let's hope that it doesn't happen.
Greg.
I won't be surprised if it does. WWI served as the justification for a violent government attack on the labor movement, WWII bequeathed us anti-Communist witch hunts, Viet Nam gave us COINTELPRO...
And it ain't like we're short on pols and pundits who can't comprehend why the "elite" should have to put up with pesky ordinary citizens questioning their Articles of Politico-economic Faith or their God-given right to rule.
That's the breed that worries me a lot more than the Falwells, Freepers and the rest of the foam-at-the-mouth far-right.
Boris Karloff died for your sins. |
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comradebillyboy
Skeptic Friend
USA
188 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2001 : 21:06:29 [Permalink]
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i reserve the right to react emotionally to politics and politians.   
but au contraire mon frere re the first amendment. the bush justice department has jailed on contempt charges a texas journalist (legget is her name) who refuses to turn over to the grand jury all of her research material and all copies, regarding a murder case she had been writing a book about. second example is the newsweek reporter whose private phone records were subpoenaed and he was only notified months after the fact. a procedure contrary to justice dept policy vis a vis the press. especially chilling when this reporter was looking at possible prosecutorial misconduct in the justice dept. investigation of senator toracelli.
i think these are direct attacks on the freedom of the press.
comrade billyboy
Edited by - comradebillyboy on 09/15/2001 21:09:19 |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2001 : 06:27:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
i think these are direct attacks on the freedom of the press.
You forgot to mention the "First Amendment Zones". These are areas, often greater than 1/2 mile away where those who disagree with the President are herded and guarded. Then there's the case of an elderly couple in Florida who were arrested because they were holding anti-Bush signs at Presidential visit rather than at the First Amendment Zone previously set up. Call me naive, but I thought the whole country was a first amendment zone.
As for elected, we will never really know since the Supreme Court (5-4 decision) stopped the hand count therefore invalidating thousands of votes and handing the Presidency to GW. The four Justices who voted to allow the hand count are starting to speak out a little.
Greg.
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2001 : 08:28:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
I am sorry that some of you have wanted to feel excluded from the national day of mourning.
We don't want to feel excluded - we are because we don't pray.
quote:
Although I am confused......I can certainly understand that you would feel excluded from the prayer service, but I haven't been able to figure out why you've extended that to the entire day.
Day of prayer - again we don't pray. Remember Bush Sr didn't think much of atheists other than that they shouldn't be considered citizens of the US.
quote:
Please compare your interpretation of what was said with the original quote, beginning with "Those of us who are gathered here..."
It was broadcast on national television. Pretty much included the entire populace of the country able and willing to watch it.
quote:
Probably, in rereading it, you'll be able to come to the conclusion that there was no exclusion of those without belief, either implied or stated. They/you simply weren't part of the audience being addressed.
Again it was on national TV. Anyone with a set was included - except atheists. Around here every channel carried it.
quote:
I wish to comment on this in order to moderate it...it's the vocal few who hold this sort of view, but I don't believe it's the majority. Perhaps those of us who do not see secularists as enemies need to speak up more often, but we just don't get the same coverage as others.
You've never had to deal with the funny sideways look you get from people when you say your an atheist. I don't think you understand just how that feels. It's like they look at you as though something is wrong with you for not believing in a god.
quote:
And I have no comment whatsoever regarding Falwell/Robertson except to say that I am just as dismayed/disgusted/harmed/damned mad/etc as any other thinking person by them.
Well, these may be the vocal few - but many watch their program. They are offering up someone to blame for this tragedy and giving god an excuse for letting this happen. Anything is better than looking at human failings and questioning your own faith in a time like this. There is always the possibility this could snowball with passions running high.
quote:
...nor does he have a "disregard for the first amendment". He was, in fact, elected by the only body who has that power in our government (the electoral college), and he has neither worked toward establishing a state religion nor has he worked toward repressing free expression.
That could be debated. He thinks this is a nation founded on xian values - despite the writings of Paine and others. Paine specifically remarked '...except for that christian god...' in some of his writings. There was a reason for a separation of church and state - it remains valid today - religious states can quickly become the kind that persecute individuals. This is a country founded on the rights of the individual not some group - though it appears that Bush (Sr and Jr) view it this way.
I'm sorry - but the Day of Prayer was an exclusion to a few of us who don't pray.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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I Doubt It
New Member
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2001 : 11:49:40 [Permalink]
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While other speakers to the nation have spoken about all faiths, all Gods, has Bush said this? When he refers to God, I get the impression (and I may be wrong) that he refuses to give credance to any other God people may believe in except his own. (Someone please point out if I have missed something.) Plus, he has been quoting Scripture and it ain't the Koran. How appropriate was it to talk of revenge and retribution in a place of worship. Singing the Battle Hymn of the Republic gave me the creeps - as if they should waltz out of church primed for a war endorsed by "God". Just my impression. Attached to no religion, some of us have the viewpoint to see all sides better. I, for one, see the religious nature all over the place.
While I don't believe in any of these battling Gods or support their minions, I believe in the human spirit. I would wish that would be stressed above all else, even excluding all else.
Edited by - i doubt it on 09/16/2001 11:51:58 |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2001 : 13:24:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
unfortunatly our un-elected president has theocratic tendencies and a fundamental disregaed for the first amendment.
comrade billyboy
I, too, have noticed this. It is very sad to observe. I wonder where all of this is going to lead.
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Zanderman:
Because you seem to be religious, you probably do not understand the subtleties of this from the standpoint of a non-believer.
I fully remember the first time, many years ago, when I heard *under God* while I was saying *indivisible* and had to do everything possible not to break out in loud laughter. At that moment, I contemplated all of the silliness on the parts of certain members of Congress in their attempts to change the Pledge of Allegiance (and completely ruin its rhythmic cadence in the process) to what it ridiculously is today. There is no *inclusion* of the non-religious people in this country by religious leaders. It really is frightening, because if one has read history carefully, it has always been dangerous to be non-religious. I seldom discuss religion with most people, because I have a sensitivity for their rights to their beliefs as I have for my right to my non beliefs. If they do not cross over the line, I leave it alone.
Religious people simply do not understand our feelings, because they have not had to suffer from the attitudes of some nasty believers.
We non-believers have our own attitudes. Speaking only for myself, I think very, very sorry for believers in that they cannot rid themselves of what I consider to be foolish beliefs. Most scientists are not believers in the usual sense of the word. Otherwise, they would not be scientists, because they would have a bias which would prevent an objective study of their field.
ljbrs  
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2001 : 13:32:36 [Permalink]
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I bet I am not alone when I say that there have been many times in my life when I when I was threatened with physical harm if I mentioned that I was not religious.
All I can say is God bless America.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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