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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
 Posted - 08/31/2005 : 14:27:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by bigbrain:
What can I say about a person who refuses the evidence?
Oh, the irony.
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METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2005 : 14:29:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by bigbrain
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Originally posted by Paulos23
Even though my drawing classes are years behind me, even I know that the vanishing point does not have to be on the bloody horizon!
The vanishing point being above the horizon in the picture is not evidence of the picture being fake!
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Read again my perspective lessons
You have not understood: vanishing points must be at the eight of horizon line.
And you don't understand what everyone else has been trying to tell you. The horizon is rarly in the center of the field of view, vanishing points are. You picuters where correct asuming that the horizon is always in the center of the field of view. Once the oberver looks up or down this is no longer the case and the vanishing point shifts with the center of the field of view.
Stand in the middle of a skyscrapers and look up. Where is the vanishing point? Is it anywhere near the horizon? |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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bigbrain
BANNED
409 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2005 : 14:36:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Kee-rist! ?
paper trail ?
I don't understand. 
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"Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit" (Flattery gets friends, truth hatred)
Publius Terentius Afer, "Terence", Roman dramatist
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2005 : 14:49:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by bigbrain
Originally posted by filthy
Kee-rist! ?
An expletive denoting extreme exasperation.
quote:
paper trail ?
The trail of paperwork - account books, ledgers, financial instruments, notebooks, and so forth that record the handling of, in this case, money. Large scale financial fraud is almost always discovered and prosecuted by means of the paper evidence.
quote:
I don't understand.
Yes, indeed!         |
- TW
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bigbrain
BANNED
409 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2005 : 14:51:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Paulos23
Stand in the middle of a skyscrapers and look up. Where is the vanishing point? Is it anywhere near the horizon?
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If you look up, YOU CAN'T SEE THE HORIZON.
BUT IN PICTURES IN WHICH YOU CAN SEE THE HORIZON, VANISHING POINTS ARE ON THE HORIZON LINE.
Study, guy, study, learn seeing paintings of the greatest artists of my country.
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"Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit" (Flattery gets friends, truth hatred)
Publius Terentius Afer, "Terence", Roman dramatist
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bigbrain
BANNED
409 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2005 : 15:02:59 [Permalink]
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VALIANT DANCER CAN'T SHOW EVEN ONE PICTURE THAT DOESN'T FOLLOW PERSPECTIVE LAWS.
THEN I'M RIGHT, THIS PICTURE IS FAKE
http://www.geocities.com/ameri1cano/fakemoon.jpg
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"Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit" (Flattery gets friends, truth hatred)
Publius Terentius Afer, "Terence", Roman dramatist
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2005 : 15:05:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by bigbrain
Originally posted by filthy
Kee-rist! ?
paper trail ?
I don't understand.
Paper trail: Those records kept of inventories used on any government project, usually broken down by cost and quanity. With a little digging, some of this might be found on line. Perhaps some of the Lunar Landing sites could (and should already have) look some of it up. It would require a concentrated effort, but worth it to settle the matter.
Kee-rist!: An explicitive; a corruption of 'Jesus Christ!' used as a statement of frustration. Apologies, I forgot that you are not a native english speaker. You do quite well at it.
That's how the feds took down Alphonse Capone, you know. They couldn't get him for murder or racketeering as he so richly deserved, but the FBI accountants finally nailed him for tax evasion, right and proper.
When in doubt, check the paper and follow the money....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2005 : 15:07:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Paulos23
quote:
Originally posted by bigbrain
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Originally posted by Paulos23
Stand in the middle of a skyscrapers and look up. Where is the vanishing point? Is it anywhere near the horizon?
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If you look up, YOU CAN'T SEE THE HORIZON.
BUT IN PICTURES IN WHICH YOU CAN SEE THE HORIZON, VANISHING POINTS ARE ON THE HORIZON LINE.
Study, guy, study, learn seeing paintings of the greatest artists of my country.
Ah, I think I have the problem with your understanding. Vanishing points and horizens are used to make pitures realistic looking, but are an artifical construct to simiplify making things look like they are going away from you. In real life the real horizen is rarely flat or at eye level, and there can be many vanishing points depending on the objects and their orentation.
Photographs are of the complex real world, they are not going to follow the simiple rules of forced perspective. |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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zaphod beeblebrox
New Member
15 Posts |
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bigbrain
BANNED
409 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2005 : 00:38:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Paulos23
Ah, I think I have the problem with your understanding. Vanishing points and horizens are used to make pitures realistic looking, but are an artifical construct to simiplify making things look like they are going away from you. In real life the real horizen is rarely flat or at eye level, and there can be many vanishing points depending on the objects and their orentation.
Photographs are of the complex real world, they are not going to follow the simiple rules of forced perspective.
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YOU, ONLY YOU HAVE MANY PROBLEMS TO UNDERSTAND SIMPLEST THINGS.
Look at this picture carefully, try to understand, don't continue to say I'm wrong.
http://www.geocities.com/ameri1cano/stintino1.jpg
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"Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit" (Flattery gets friends, truth hatred)
Publius Terentius Afer, "Terence", Roman dramatist
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bigbrain
BANNED
409 Posts |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2005 : 02:46:27 [Permalink]
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I'm going to have to explain my understanding of perspectives. In some ways I'm agreeing with bigbrain (and thus disagreeing with other posters). When drawing lines between the feet of the lander (fakemoon.jpg), these should meet at the horizon, irrespective of the direction the camera is pointing, and irrespective of the height of the lander (assuming the lander is not too high up, but for the picture posted it should not be a problem). It should not matter, per se, if the lander is on a hill or not. This should hold true assuming:
1. the feet of the lander are all in the same plane (the plane that "defines" the horizon). If any of the feet is out of that plane, the point where the lines intercept will over- or undershoot the horizon. This could happen because (1) the lander is on a slope or (2) the lander is on rough terrain and the legs of the lander are "distended" unequal amounts (something it should be able to do, looking at the picture).
2. The four legs of the lander form a rectangle or a square with perfect 90 degree angles.
3. The lens used on the camera is not prone to barrel distortion (it was a swedish camera, so I sincerely doubt that, considering the superiority of swedish engineering. Saying that, wide-angle lenses tend to (have to) be prone to this.
Please note also that the way you drew the lines (i.e. not straight, and not going through the same points in the feet) exaggerates the extent to which the intercept overshoots the horizon. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2005 : 07:52:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawks
Please note also that the way you drew the lines (i.e. not straight, and not going through the same points in the feet) exaggerates the extent to which the intercept overshoots the horizon.
I agree. The pictures bigbrain is posting are way too low-resolution (including too thick lines) to give a good representation. That goes especially for the latest pic also. It's so bad you can prove almost anything with it. Therefore I assume that bigbrain's photo is fake.
ALL PICTURES I*VE SEEN OF THE TOWER OF PISA ARE FRAUDS, BECAUSE EVERYONE KNOW THAT A TOWER IS BUILT STRAIGHT UP !!!!
http://hem.bredband.net/trilliadin/images/pisatower.jpg |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2005 : 08:06:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawks
I'm going to have to explain my understanding of perspectives. In some ways I'm agreeing with bigbrain (and thus disagreeing with other posters). When drawing lines between the feet of the lander (fakemoon.jpg), these should meet at the horizon, irrespective of the direction the camera is pointing, and irrespective of the height of the lander (assuming the lander is not too high up, but for the picture posted it should not be a problem). It should not matter, per se, if the lander is on a hill or not. This should hold true assuming:
1. the feet of the lander are all in the same plane (the plane that "defines" the horizon). If any of the feet is out of that plane, the point where the lines intercept will over- or undershoot the horizon. This could happen because (1) the lander is on a slope or (2) the lander is on rough terrain and the legs of the lander are "distended" unequal amounts (something it should be able to do, looking at the picture).
2. The four legs of the lander form a rectangle or a square with perfect 90 degree angles.
3. The lens used on the camera is not prone to barrel distortion (it was a swedish camera, so I sincerely doubt that, considering the superiority of swedish engineering. Saying that, wide-angle lenses tend to (have to) be prone to this.
Please note also that the way you drew the lines (i.e. not straight, and not going through the same points in the feet) exaggerates the extent to which the intercept overshoots the horizon.
Thank you Hawks for that explination. I stand corrected. |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2005 : 08:12:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by bigbrain
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
... Perspective in art is different than perspective in real life ...
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WHAT ARE YOU SAYING?
OUR GREATEST ARTISTS USED PERSPECTIVE TO MAKE THEIR PAINTINGS REAL.
INSTEAD OF SAYING I'M WRONG, SHOW ONE PICTURE THAT DOESN'T FOLLOW PERSPECTIVE LAWS.
Already showed it with the pictures from the Grand Canyon. Nice dodge. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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