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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2005 :  18:42:21  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
(bill) OK now where were we? Oh yeah, I was asking how/why the dog grew hair to begin with?



[Moved to the Creation/Evolution folder - Dave W.]

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2005 :  18:59:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
Hey, Bill, I haven't followed the last few pages of the previous thread, so if I'm breaking some rules here by jumping in please forgive me. However, before a recent plane trip I happened to pick up a copy of Scientific American to peruse at 30,000 feet. In the December 2005 issue (volume 293 no. 6), is a great article entitled "Getting a Leg up on Land" where the author, Jennifer A. Clack. It's got all the things you're looking for: transitional fossils, informed opinions on how and why certain things occurred, and it even demonstrates true science in action. The first part of the article discusses how scholars previously thought the transition from aquatic to land animals may have happened, and then goes to show how new evidence suggests a different way. Thus, a hypothesis is more or less refuted based on new data. None of this challenges evolution, but it does demonstrate a clear difference between practicing science and the immutable "Goddidit" that is creationism/ID.

I hope you get a chance to read it!
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2005 :  19:12:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

(bill) OK now where were we? Oh yeah, I was asking how/why the dog grew hair to begin with?



[Moved to the Creation/Evolution folder - Dave W.]

Because god didn't want all those doggies getting cold at night, so he gave them all fur coats! By using magic! Ain't that right, Billy Boy?


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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dv82matt
SFN Regular

760 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2005 :  19:20:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dv82matt a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

(bill) OK now where were we? Oh yeah, I was asking how/why the dog grew hair to begin with?
Dogs inherited the genes for growing hair from wolves.

Now how about answering the questions others have put to you.
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GeeMack
SFN Regular

USA
1093 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2005 :  19:26:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GeeMack a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Scott...

(bill) OK now where were we? Oh yeah, I was asking how/why the dog grew hair to begin with?
No, you've forgotten already. It was we who had asked you a question, and so far you've neglected to provide an answer. You said the code in the DNA is what caused some dogs to have long hair and some dogs to have short hair. I asked how the code in the DNA caused those dogs' hair to get longer? Was that code always in the DNA from the beginning of time? What is it about DNA that makes all the puppies in a litter have varying lengths of hair? Does that DNA (a) have some magic in it, or does it (b) contain random mutations from generation to generation?

But, while we're at it, since you've asked how/why the dog grew hair to begin with, why don't you give us your thoughts on that one, too?
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular

USA
1191 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2005 :  20:41:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send R.Wreck a Private Message
quote:
(bill) OK now where were we? Oh yeah, I was asking how/why the dog grew hair to begin with?



Yo Bill. How do you explain the green puppy? Not a random mutation?

The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley

The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2005 :  04:42:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

(bill) OK now where were we? Oh yeah, I was asking how/why the dog grew hair to begin with?



[Moved to the Creation/Evolution folder - Dave W.]

Domestic dog genetics are so screwed up that the point is moot in any event.

But here's a related question that might interest: What is the relationship of this to canines? Could it be parallel evolution?



Oh and lest we forget, what reference do you have that all mutations are harmful, and, if the ToE is false, what do you have in it's place as an explanation for the variety of life on earth?




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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trogdor
Skeptic Friend

198 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2005 :  10:30:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send trogdor a Private Message
I'm not all the way through reading the last thread of this topic so if someone has posted this forgive me.
having spent 4 years in the public education system I am enraged that you are still attacking it. You spew out unsupported assertions, and when I question one of the claims you made "where does Darwin say that he expects lots of transitional fossils?" you ignore it and then give the same assertions again and again. So, if I'm a illiterate dumbass why can't you answer my question?

all eyes were on Ford Prefect. some of them were on stalks.
-Douglas Adams
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2005 :  10:48:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by trogdor

I'm not all the way through reading the last thread of this topic so if someone has posted this forgive me.
having spent 4 years in the public education system I am enraged that you are still attacking it. You spew out unsupported assertions, and when I question one of the claims you made "where does Darwin say that he expects lots of transitional fossils?" you ignore it and then give the same assertions again and again. So, if I'm a illiterate dumbass why can't you answer my question?



Gee, I think you've pegged his almost verlchian style of arguementation. Especially since his assertions about the public school system have been soundly refuted in the last thread.


Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2005 :  11:01:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by trogdor

I'm not all the way through reading the last thread of this topic so if someone has posted this forgive me.
having spent 4 years in the public education system I am enraged that you are still attacking it. You spew out unsupported assertions, and when I question one of the claims you made "where does Darwin say that he expects lots of transitional fossils?" you ignore it and then give the same assertions again and again. So, if I'm a illiterate dumbass why can't you answer my question?

Heh, good luck with that, trog. Some of us have been trying to pry an answer or two out of Bill from the very first. Apparently, he either has none, or has not enough faith in their accuracy to venture them forth.

I've noticed that this sort of behavior is not at all rare amongst those who would refute the ToE with rhetoric and the laying on waving of hands.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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R.Wreck
SFN Regular

USA
1191 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2005 :  12:45:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send R.Wreck a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by trogdor

I'm not all the way through reading the last thread of this topic so if someone has posted this forgive me.
having spent 4 years in the public education system I am enraged that you are still attacking it. You spew out unsupported assertions, and when I question one of the claims you made "where does Darwin say that he expects lots of transitional fossils?" you ignore it and then give the same assertions again and again. So, if I'm a illiterate dumbass why can't you answer my question?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Gee, I think you've pegged his almost verlchian style of arguementation.


Yes the styles are similar (and in both cases about as useful and satisfying as discussing nuclear physics with your dog), but I actually rather enjoy verlch's posts, aside from the obvious entertainment value. I find verlch to be the closest thing to a True Christian (TM) we have visit here. Verlch takes the bible to it's logically absurd conclusions, no matter how ridiculous it makes him seem. It doesn't matter what reality is, if it's in the bible (or more importantly, if verlch believes it's in the bible), then goddammit, that's the way it is, damn the torpedoes, no apologies, full speed ahead, and for that at least I'll give him some credit.

Bill on the other hand has spent 16+ pages in a laughably feeble, completely unsuccessful attempt to poke holes in the theory of evolution (with a side trip into public education), without admitting what it is he believes. We are left to assume that he is some kind of fundy nutball without even the nads to admit that his religious beliefs are what fuels his ineffectual, repetitive, lame-ass arguments. Give me an honest verlch any day.

The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley

The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2005 :  13:37:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
TalkOrigins has a good Feedback this month.
quote:
Feedback Letter
From: lojikal
Comment: The first law of physics states energy cannot be created or destroyed. And since matter and energy are interchangable, matter, therefore, cannot be created or destroyed. Since evolution claims that the universe started at the big bang, matter had to have come from somewhere. Since it is physically impossible to create matter, it is illogical to assumer that matter came into existance by itself. I would argue that this leads to the sole conclusion that something higher than natural order is responsible, (you know where this is heading)aka, God. Go ahead and argue the defenition of God, but one can't get around the physical impossiblity. Love to hear anyone's feedback on this. But please do not write me if your just going to scream and holler and call me an idiot. Nor if you are going to sarcastically remark on something besides the point, or ascribe to a logical fallacy, or make rhetorical questions that even you don't have an answer for. Answer the problem directly.

Responses
From: Mark Isaak
Response: First, the Big Bang does not say matter (or energy) comes from nothing. It does not say where the energy of the universe came from. The energy may have been there from the beginning of time.
Second, what we call the laws of physics are determined by how the universe works, not vice versa. If we find that the universe violates the first law of theromdynamics (not the "first law of physics"), then so much the worse for the law. Laws of physics describe our understanding of how how things work. To insist that the universe conform to our understanding of it -- whether that understanding comes from science or religion -- is a form of hubris.

Third, appealing to god explains nothing, unless you are going to explain the mechanisms by which god operates. And that, I expect, would be a harder problem than discovering the origins of the universe.

From: Kenneth fair
Response: Fourth, evolution claims nothing about the Big Bang. Evolution concerns itself with explaining the diversity and distribution of life on Earth. It's studied by biologists. The Big Bang, and more generally the origins of the universe, are part of cosmology, which is studied by physicists. Although they are both sciences and have many related principles, biology is not physics.
Fifth, the Big Bang is an observed phenomenon. We observe that other galaxies are moving away from us, and are moving faster away from us the farther away they are. If everything is moving away from everything else right now, at some point in the past it had to be closer together. The theory of the Big Bang explains this observation, as well as others (such as the cosmic microwave background radiation and the abundance of various elements in the universe).

Sixth, the Big Bang is consistent with a view that God created the universe. After all, the theory was originally proposed by a priest, Georges-Henri LeMaitre. But it's also consistent with other views. Before a certain point in time known as the Planck epoch, we really can't say much of anything about the state of the universe whatsoever. We don't really know how or even if the laws of physics apply to the Big Bang itself.


One thing you can say about verlch, he always came at you head-on with lots of reference, albeit often screwy reference. And above all, he was never boring.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2005 :  14:09:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
Ya, I miss V. He's starting to get famous - people outside the SFN sphere know about him. Namely, the people from other forums, other places, that I talk to.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2005 :  17:05:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

(bill) OK now where were we? Oh yeah, I was asking how/why the dog grew hair to begin with?

May I put that in scientific terms for you?

What selection pressures acted on the genetic precursors of modern dogs to produce hair?

This may not quite answer the details, but here is where in the evolutionary sequence hair genetics began.

http://tolweb.org/tree?group=Synapsida

quote:
The oldest preserved synapsid hair appears to belong to a Paleocene multituberculate (Meng and Wyss, 1997). The position of this group has been debated, but they are probably mammals (Rowe, 1988), so the presence of hair in multituberculates was predictible.


And here's one hypothesis as to what came before hair.

http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/topics/mammal_anatomy/hair.html

quote:
We do not know when hair evolved, as it is usually not preserved in fossils. Pits in the fossilized rostrum of the some Cretaceous therapsids may be an indirect indication of the presence of vibrissae (McLoughlin, 1980); if so, these provide the first direct evidence of hair. The small body size (i.e., high surface area to mass ratio and therefore propensity to loose heat) and possible endothermy of the earliest mammals and their immediate ancestors suggest that they could not have existed without a good covering of insulation. So it is likely that these animals had hair, and most reconstructions of them show their bodies covered with fur (e.g., Savage and Long, 1986). But was insulation the primitive function of hair, the reason why it originally evolved? Insulation is the most conspicuous and perhaps the most universal function of hair in modern mammals, but hair doesn't serve as effective insulation until it is fairly well developed as pelage. It may be that the first hairs evolved as sensory outgrowths between the scales of some ancestral therapsid, and only later took on the function of insulation.
Edited by - beskeptigal on 12/29/2005 17:17:58
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2005 :  19:16:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dv82matt

quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

(bill) OK now where were we? Oh yeah, I was asking how/why the dog grew hair to begin with?
Dogs inherited the genes for growing hair from wolves.

Now how about answering the questions others have put to you.



Why did the wolf grow hair to begin with?

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2005 :  19:22:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack

quote:
Originally posted by Bill Scott...

(bill) OK now where were we? Oh yeah, I was asking how/why the dog grew hair to begin with?
No, you've forgotten already. It was we who had asked you a question, and so far you've neglected to provide an answer. You said the code in the DNA is what caused some dogs to have long hair and some dogs to have short hair. I asked how the code in the DNA caused those dogs' hair to get longer? Was that code always in the DNA from the beginning of time? What is it about DNA that makes all the puppies in a litter have varying lengths of hair? Does that DNA (a) have some magic in it, or does it (b) contain random mutations from generation to generation?

But, while we're at it, since you've asked how/why the dog grew hair to begin with, why don't you give us your thoughts on that one, too?






No, you've forgotten already. It was we who had asked you a question, and so far you've neglected to provide an answer. You said the code in the DNA is what caused some dogs to have long hair and some dogs to have short hair. I asked how the code in the DNA caused those dogs' hair to get longer?
(bill) Genetic traits that were passed down from the pouches parents that is what caused the hair to get longer. Just like some humans have blue eyes and some have Brown. This already has been decided in the genetic code before the pup, or baby, are even born. After a few generations in the cold the long hair dogs have breed with other long hair dogs and then you have artic dogs. No mutation required and no NDEP involved. Now let me get this straight, in NDEP the bald little puppy, after having gone north into the cold, would have to wait around for a few million years while NS sorts out this dilemma and designs the first dog hair with the forethought and future plans to add more hairs together over the next few millions of years to make coat for the puppy? Those must have been some hideous creators along the way. Come on bald little puppies in the snow hang on. Random mutations will have a coat for you in few more million years. SiFi dude…





Was that code always in the DNA from the beginning of time?
(bill) The beginning of time? Are you prepared to cross the line and mix NDEP with cosmology? Most evolutionists refuse to do this. “We will not go further back in time then the “warm little pond” and you can't make us.” If you would like my thoughts on the “beginning of time” I am going to have some questions of my own which fall under “cosmology”. There was a point in time when life began to exist, so what caused life to begin exist when previously it did not? Give me you best notion. Please don't use any physical matter unless you plan to give us the origin of the PM. The PM had a PIT when it began to exist so what was its first cause? And please don't use PM to explain the existence of PM.






What is it about DNA that makes all the puppies in a litter have varying lengths of hair?
(bill) The genetic code.




Does that DNA (a) have some magic in it,
No of coarse not.




or does it (b) contain random mutations from generation to generation?
(bill) If the bald little puppy were waiting on RM to stumble across the concept of a hair and then having to wait for RM to accidentally fine tune this mutation that caused a hair to grow somewhere on the puppy to now grow hair all over and long then he is going to have some cold nights. Say a few million years worth of cold nights as he sits there bald and shivering. Alas, NS has come

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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