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Rumpl4skn
New Member

25 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  17:51:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Rumpl4skn a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

WHy don't you start with your single best piece of evidence that the 9/11 events were something other than a terrorist attack.


Okay. But only if I get a better rebuff than "you're a paranoid lunatic" or "that's a pile of crazy horseshit."

Let's start with some non-physical evidence. The unbelievably high level of Put Options purchased on United Airlines and American Airlines 6 days before 9/11.

Someone or someones cleared roughly $25 million on those bets that the stocks would drop, and not only did they never claim their profits, the SEC has refused to release the names of those investors.

And those are just the largest group of seemingly frantic investors who places unusually high volumes on stocks that it would be obvious would drop if there was an attack exactly as we did suffer on Sept. 11th, not the only ones.

Someone in the investment world knew what was about to happen, and had the balls to try to make money from it.

Taking other people's signatures and switching a few words around to make it opposite in meaning doesn't make you particularly clever. Although I admit I've done it myself, and it did make me FEEL more clever. : )
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  18:04:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
Someone or someones cleared roughly $25 million on those bets that the stocks would drop, and not only did they never claim their profits, the SEC has refused to release the names of those investors.


So someone knew, made money, but never claimed it? What was the point then? That doesn't make any sense.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  18:35:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Rumpl4skn wrote:
quote:
The unbelievably high level of Put Options purchased on United Airlines and American Airlines 6 days before 9/11.

Someone or someones cleared roughly $25 million on those bets that the stocks would drop, and not only did they never claim their profits, the SEC has refused to release the names of those investors.

And those are just the largest group of seemingly frantic investors who places unusually high volumes on stocks that it would be obvious would drop if there was an attack exactly as we did suffer on Sept. 11th, not the only ones.
I second pleco's question, and have three more: 1.)What is your reference? 2.)What is the context/details of "unbelievably high". What I mean is, what are the specific amounts and what sort of amounts are normal, so we can rule out coincidence. 3.)Are the names of those investors part of the public record that the SEC would be obligated to release them?

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 02/28/2006 18:35:33
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  18:38:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Yeah, whoever placed those options, knowing that the SEC would investigate after 9/11, was simply unbelievably stupid.

How is it that we know that the unreleased names aren't simply idiotic terrorists who are currently under investigation?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Rumpl4skn
New Member

25 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  18:55:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Rumpl4skn a Private Message
Okay, so we have 2 different takes on what I posted.

The first was essentially - okay, so somebody knew about 9/11 and made some money, so what? (Btw, typo inmy post - it was $2.5 million, not $25 million. But the 9/11 Commission lists it as twice the amount, or $5 million.)

You're either being cruelly sarcastic, or you're deranged. If you're saying it doesn;t matter that someone in the U.S. trading on our stock market had prior knowledge of the attacks, I guess I can offcially ignore the rest of your posts.

The second take regarded eveidence. So, even though I was earlier chastised for posting links, I will post links.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/10_09_01_krongard.html

Now, in the event that link is greeted here with the label of "unconvincing" type, I also provide the government link:

http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hearing1/witness_kleinberg.htm

Btw, the issue is still unresolved, as of this date: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/6/2/62018.shtml

The second claim was that it was "innocent" because only an idiot wouldn't know the SEC would investigate. Sadly, the SEC did NOT do the investigation, they are REFUSING to do the investigation, as well as not release information on the culprits, whom they certainly have to know the identity of. (Note - they are not saying "we don't know who", they are refusing to divulge.)

This is deliberate miscarriage of justice, I don't care how you look at it. And it requires a certain amount of complicity amongst the highest levels of government for this to have just ground to an unresolved halt.

Remember - the more rich and/or powerful the suspect, the more money and power that's required to get anyone to notice the crime.

Taking other people's signatures and switching a few words around to make it opposite in meaning doesn't make you particularly clever. Although I admit I've done it myself, and it did make me FEEL more clever. : )
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Rumpl4skn
New Member

25 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  18:58:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Rumpl4skn a Private Message
Btw, 2 technical questions for you regulars: how do you edit a post, like in typo correction, and how do you subscribe to a thread, so I get email notofication of new posts?

Color me stupid, but I can't find controls for this.

Taking other people's signatures and switching a few words around to make it opposite in meaning doesn't make you particularly clever. Although I admit I've done it myself, and it did make me FEEL more clever. : )
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  18:58:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
rumple said:
quote:
Let's start with some non-physical evidence. The unbelievably high level of Put Options purchased on United Airlines and American Airlines 6 days before 9/11.



Ok, I'll admit this is a new one to me.

Lets see your evidence. Some independent source that shows the trends in "put options" over a five year period before 9/11 and the five year period after 9/11 would be acceptable. That should let us see just how uncommon an occurence it is.

Also, I want to see some evidence that the SEC routinely releases names of investors.

quote:
And those are just the largest group of seemingly frantic investors who places unusually high volumes on stocks that it would be obvious would drop if there was an attack exactly as we did suffer on Sept. 11th, not the only ones.

Someone in the investment world knew what was about to happen, and had the balls to try to make money from it.


Every stock on the NYSE (and every other stock exchange) dropped after 9/11. Alot of people probably made money on that, lets see some evidence that this drop in stock prices created any more profit than previous drops, as would be the case if some people knew about it in advance as you suggest.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  19:07:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Rumpl4skn

Btw, 2 technical questions for you regulars: how do you edit a post, like in typo correction,
There should be an edit button on all your posts. Looks like a pencil erasure pointed at white page with a check mark on it. You have to be logged in for this button to appear.
quote:
...and how do you subscribe to a thread, so I get email notofication of new posts?

You can't.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/28/2006 19:08:58
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  19:11:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco

quote:
Someone or someones cleared roughly $25 million on those bets that the stocks would drop, and not only did they never claim their profits, the SEC has refused to release the names of those investors.


So someone knew, made money, but never claimed it? What was the point then? That doesn't make any sense.

I remember reading about that at the time. The question was and remains: who?

As I recall, the bin Laden family, who have been tied to the Bush family for decades, were suspected in speculations at the time. Some members of the bin Laden family were hurriedly flown out of the country almost immediately after 9/11.

But this remains circumstantial and there are other plausible explanations. For example: it was one of the bin Ladens, knowing or not, but possibly in all innocence, that did the trade. They called on their friend Bush in a panic, and blew the country, the money be damned. Under those circumstances, I wouldn't try to claim the money, either.

The immediate crime there is the cronyism of the Bushs, who shipped the bin Ladens out without thoroughly interrogating and then investigating them.

Could some members of the administration have been "in the know?" Sure. As this is the most corrupt administration this side of Augusto Pinochet, why not? But claiming it and proving it are mutually exclusive, unless all we want is a good, old-fashioned lynching.... Those are fun, but, alas, not constitutional.

So, while I don't buy the official line, I don't give any more credence to the various conspiracy theories floating around.

One day, perhaps, someone will spill his guts and kick off the investigation that will settle it once and for all.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  19:14:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Rump wrote:
quote:
Okay. But only if I get a better rebuff than "you're a paranoid lunatic" or "that's a pile of crazy horseshit."

Sorry, Rump, I've tried to make the same kind of demands here at SFN. It won't work. Besides, those are the compliments.

Anyone making extraordinary claims here is subject worse treatment than that, if he doesn't produce evidence, or if the "evidence" he does produce is suspect. That's just how the site works.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  19:17:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
Rumpl said:
quote:
The second claim was that it was "innocent" because only an idiot wouldn't know the SEC would investigate. Sadly, the SEC did NOT do the investigation, they are REFUSING to do the investigation, as well as not release information on the culprits, whom they certainly have to know the identity of. (Note - they are not saying "we don't know who", they are refusing to divulge.)



None of the links from your post are anything other than annecdotal evidence. The witness testimony does not reference a source for the info and the other one is... well, less than credible seems a safe way to put it.

I would like to see the record of these alledged "put option" trades. Sorry, but your word and/or the unsupported word of others doesn't meet even the most minimal standard of evidence.

I would like to see the 5 years trends before and after 9/11 on "put options" on airline stocks.

I would like to see the SEC policy that says they are required to, or should, release investor names, especially if those names are implicated in a crime like 9/11.

I would like to see your evidence that demonstrates the SEC has not given the names of these alledged investors to the FBI or CIA.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Rumpl4skn
New Member

25 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  19:55:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Rumpl4skn a Private Message
quote:

None of the links from your post are anything other than annecdotal evidence. The witness testimony does not reference a source for the info and the other one is... well, less than credible seems a safe way to put it.



So, to you people here who apparently fully believe the government's official story about 9/11, the link to the 9/11 Commission Report is anecdotal?????

I believe I haven't just joined a new board, I've entered an alternate universe.

Taking other people's signatures and switching a few words around to make it opposite in meaning doesn't make you particularly clever. Although I admit I've done it myself, and it did make me FEEL more clever. : )
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend

USA
446 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  20:10:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Paulos23's Homepage Send Paulos23 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Rumpl4skn

quote:

None of the links from your post are anything other than annecdotal evidence. The witness testimony does not reference a source for the info and the other one is... well, less than credible seems a safe way to put it.



So, to you people here who apparently fully believe the government's official story about 9/11, the link to the 9/11 Commission Report is anecdotal?????

I believe I haven't just joined a new board, I've entered an alternate universe.




Err... your link to the 9/11 Commission Report didn't go to anything about put options, it went to a interview of a widow. Can't see how that is relivent to put options.

Edit: found it. It is in her testamony. Quite a long speach...but she said it, not the commission.

Another Edit: Found more in the Notes of the report: http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Notes.pdf Note 130. And I quote:

quote:
The SEC and the FBI, aided by other agencies and the securities industry, devoted enormous
resources to investigating this issue, including securing the cooperation of many foreign governments.These
investigators have found that the apparently suspicious consistently proved innocuous.


They go into it in great length here: http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_statements/911_TerrFin_Monograph.pdf Again it is concluded that it is innocuous and not illegel.

You said the SEC did not investgate, but the report said it did, and the FBI on top of it.

You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
Edited by - Paulos23 on 02/28/2006 20:27:31
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Rumpl4skn
New Member

25 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  20:13:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Rumpl4skn a Private Message
quote:
I remember reading about that at the time. The question was and remains: who?

As I recall, the bin Laden family, who have been tied to the Bush family for decades, were suspected in speculations at the time. Some members of the bin Laden family were hurriedly flown out of the country almost immediately after 9/11.

But this remains circumstantial and there are other plausible explanations. For example: it was one of the bin Ladens, knowing or not, but possibly in all innocence, that did the trade. They called on their friend Bush in a panic, and blew the country, the money be damned. Under those circumstances, I wouldn't try to claim the money, either.

The immediate crime there is the cronyism of the Bushs, who shipped the bin Ladens out without thoroughly interrogating and then investigating them.

Okay. So, with all the attempts the Bush admin has been making to portray Bin Laden as the evil mastermind of all dark forces in the world, what makes you think that Congressional forces would sit tight and moot about it if they had the slightest sliver of evidence that one of the family was the mystery Put Option purchaser?

Yes, the Bush family has no ill will against the family that essentially bankrolled Dubya's numerous failed business ventures. But once he made Osama the boogieman he needed to protect us from, the family name became fair game amonst congress members, even the Republicans, if not especially the Republicans.

Although, I will admit, getting info out regarding anything slightly Saudi has been like squeezing oranges through a plastic screen door.

So, if you buy the concept that Bush can successfully squelch every Congressman who would suspect the bin Ladens, then that's a plausible theory, that it could be administration friends. I don't buy it, but it's not crazy.


Taking other people's signatures and switching a few words around to make it opposite in meaning doesn't make you particularly clever. Although I admit I've done it myself, and it did make me FEEL more clever. : )
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Rumpl4skn
New Member

25 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  20:26:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Rumpl4skn a Private Message
quote:


Err... your link to the 9/11 Commission Report didn't go to anything about put options, it went to a interview of a widow. Can't see how that is relivent to put options.

Edit: found it. It is in her testamony. Quite a long speach...but she said it, not the commission.


From that page:

The SEC
The terrorist's lucky streak began the week before September 11th with the Securities and Exchange Commission, or SEC. The SEC, in concert with the United States intelligence agencies, has sophisticated software programs that are used in "real-time" to watch both domestic and overseas markets to seek out trends that may indicate a present or future crime. In the week prior to September 11th both the SEC and U.S. intelligence agencies ignored one major stock market indicator, one that could have yielded valuable information with regard to the September 11th attacks.

On the Chicago Board Options Exchange during the week before September 11th, put options were purchased on American and United Airlines, the two airlines involved in the attacks. The investors who placed these orders were gambling that in the short term the stock prices of both Airlines would plummet. Never before on the Chicago Exchange were such large amounts of United and American Airlines options traded. These investors netted a profit of at least $5 million after the September 11th attacks.

Interestingly, the names of the investors remain undisclosed and the $5 million remains unclaimed in the Chicago Exchange account.

Why these aberrant trades were not discovered prior to 9/11? Who were the individuals who placed these trades? Have they been investigated? Who was responsible for monitoring these activities? Have those individuals been held responsible for their inaction?

Taking other people's signatures and switching a few words around to make it opposite in meaning doesn't make you particularly clever. Although I admit I've done it myself, and it did make me FEEL more clever. : )
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