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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  11:57:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Rumpl4skn

quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Rumpl wrote:
quote:
In your heart of hearts, does that look like enough structural damage to make a steel-structured building fall straight down, neatly into it's own footprint? It doesn't in my universe, which is still governed by the laws of physics. Even FEMA had "no explanation" for the collapse of this building.
False conclusion, Rump. You conveniently leave out the melting, even burning, of the building's steel frame, caused by the airliner's fuel.



Okay. Please tell me how kerosene manages to "burn steel"?



It doesn't.

However, it did make the fire burn in a non-uniform way which increased the stress until a buckling failure caused the floors to collapse. After that, it was all gravity. The reason for the failure is explained in detail in the link I provided. And it's from a non-governmental expert source.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Rumpl4skn
New Member

25 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  11:59:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Rumpl4skn a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Rumpl asked:
quote:
You watched that whole thing already? Or had you seen it before?

I'm curious as to what you see that "doesn't match" the narration.
I was commenting on the first part, where the narrator claims her is a missile attached to the aircraft, which w fired just prior to impact. No visual evidence. I just don't see what he's talking about! I'll watch the rest, but I already think the narrator is a liar or nutcase.


The narrator never mentions the word "missile". He points to an amoalie on the underside of the alleged Flight 175. And if you saw no physical evidence, then where do you get the concept of a "missile" from?

Methinks you are replying with info from a previous discussion about this video.

Taking other people's signatures and switching a few words around to make it opposite in meaning doesn't make you particularly clever. Although I admit I've done it myself, and it did make me FEEL more clever. : )
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  12:04:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Rumpl asked:
quote:
The narrator never mentions the word "missile". He points to an amoalie on the underside of the alleged Flight 175. And if you saw no physical evidence, then where do you get the concept of a "missile" from?
Because the narrator clearly stated that a "missile" was launched from the plane, just before impact. Did YOU watch the video?


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Rumpl4skn
New Member

25 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  12:06:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Rumpl4skn a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Why not leave out these tedious attempts to disprove one of the most closely observed disasters in history, and just cut to the chase, Rumpl. Tell us who "really" did 911, if not al Qaeda in hijacked airliners?


I get the feeling you here have made up your minds, and I'd be wasting my efforts.

And I think you guys want me to propse my final conclusion, because (a) you're heard it before, (b) you've rendered it lunacy or idiocy in your minds, and (c) you don't want to hear contrary information. That's fine, I don't particualrly want to discuss this with anyone who's head in comfortably in the sand. I do however, wonder what the word "skeptic" has to do with this website.

I see comment s about potentioal government evil... yet this is somehow beyond the bounds of that? If you're only explanation for anything is "that couldn't happen here", you may have a serious problem.

I feel there is enough evidence to AT LEAST warrant another, truly bi-partisan, truly independent investigation of this event. If you have actually read the 9/11 Commission Report, and done further examination of the claims of this government hoax, and STILL feel satisfied with what you've been told... then welcome to your world. I hope for your sake, that there is not another false-flag attack.

I'm out of here. Best of luck with your reality.

Taking other people's signatures and switching a few words around to make it opposite in meaning doesn't make you particularly clever. Although I admit I've done it myself, and it did make me FEEL more clever. : )
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  12:07:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Rumpl4skn

quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Rumpl asked:
quote:
You watched that whole thing already? Or had you seen it before?

I'm curious as to what you see that "doesn't match" the narration.
I was commenting on the first part, where the narrator claims her is a missile attached to the aircraft, which w fired just prior to impact. No visual evidence. I just don't see what he's talking about! I'll watch the rest, but I already think the narrator is a liar or nutcase.


The narrator never mentions the word "missile". He points to an amoalie on the underside of the alleged Flight 175. And if you saw no physical evidence, then where do you get the concept of a "missile" from?

Methinks you are replying with info from a previous discussion about this video.



I've seen this video in a discussion on another board. All the anomalies are reflected sunlight and fireballs.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend

USA
446 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  12:11:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Paulos23's Homepage Send Paulos23 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Rumpl4skn

Okay... I have to get back to remodeling today, but let me leave you with this:

You say WTC 7 had "the tallest building in the world fall on it." Have you seen pictures of the actual damage to WTC 7?


snipped pic for readablity.

quote:

In your heart of hearts, does that look like enough structural damage to make a steel-structured building fall straight down, neatly into it's own footprint? It doesn't in my universe, which is still governed by the laws of physics. Even FEMA had "no explanation" for the collapse of this building.



My heart (and brain) is telling me to check with a structal engineer. Building are not simple boxes, they are very complex structers. The WTC was one of the most complex, and once it was damaged enough it would fall apart and go nearly straight down as it pancaked on itself.

Besides, I don't think the building your showing in your pic is WTC7. At least, it doesn't match my memory of WTC7 from the news casts.

You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  12:12:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Rump sed:
quote:
I'm out of here. Best of luck with your reality.

Good riddance, if he's even going to lie about the fact that the narrator made that "missile" claim!


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  12:23:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
A kerosene fire with good venelation will certainly get hot enough to turn steel bright red, and in a rather short time. The structure gets hot enough to soften and the sheer tonnage above the strike point brings down the buildings.

The alternetive is a controlled implosion caused by intentionally set, high explosives, notably shaped charges. To set these charges is no task of a moment. It requirs a number of personell tearing out walls to get at the structure, and would take a lot of time and effort to get it just right. I don't see how it could have been done surriptitiously.

While I think that the foul Bush administration would have been perfectly capable of of such a thing, if they'd thought of it, until better evidence comes along I'll have to grudgingly give them a pass.

I do not, however, absolve the treasonous bastards of ignoring some information and cherry-picking the rest. To that extent at least, they are responsible and should be driven from office if not jailed.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  12:31:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Even though Rumpl4skn says he's gone (that was fast!), I'll respond anyway, just in case he changed his mind:

quote:
I get the feeling you here have made up your minds, and I'd be wasting my efforts.

And I think you guys want me to propse my final conclusion, because (a) you're heard it before, (b) you've rendered it lunacy or idiocy in your minds, and (c) you don't want to hear contrary information. That's fine, I don't particualrly want to discuss this with anyone who's head in comfortably in the sand. I do however, wonder what the word "skeptic" has to do with this website.
Many people here have made up their minds, but they've done so because they've already exercised their skepticism: they have heard these arguments before, they considered the evidence, did their own research, and concluded that the conspiracy theories about 9-11 were weak. It's a shame you want to give up so quickly. You've only started posting your evidence, and people immediately responded with perfectly logical explanations. That's not the kind of response from people who have their heads in the sand.

Also, if you check out some of the other discussions, you'll see that this is hardly a group that exhibits group think, or that strictly adheres to mainstream modes of thought. So it looks to me like you are giving up so quickly because nobody here agrees with you, not because the other participants are out of touch with reality. If you give up so soon, it is truly your loss.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 02/28/2006 12:32:40
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  14:14:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
I'm well aware of the 9/11 conspiracy belief and have even seen the movies. My neighbor has hundreds of 'underground' DVDs on radical political topics, (some are pretty good and very enlightening.) I was absolutely unimpressed by the evidence presented about the 9/11 conspiracy. While there may be a few not well explained pieces such as the towers collapsing, there are a vast many more inexplicable pieces if one excepts the premise of a conspiracy.

Welcome to SFN, BTW. And see ya round, as well, I guess.

Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/28/2006 14:33:29
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Fripp
SFN Regular

USA
727 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  14:25:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Fripp a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Rumpl4skn
I get the feeling you here have made up your minds, and I'd be wasting my efforts.

...you've rendered it lunacy or idiocy in your minds, and (c) you don't want to hear contrary information. That's fine, I don't particualrly want to discuss this with anyone who's head in comfortably in the sand. I do however, wonder what the word "skeptic" has to do with this website.




Even though he says he's gone, I'll reply anyway.

Look in the mirror...it is you who is guilty of what you say we are...

Just because we don't agree with your conclusions, we are then "close-minded"?

It is you who has made up your mindn and we'd be wasting our efforts.

It is you who has rendered it lunacy or idiocy to belive otherwise,

It is you who doesn't want to hear contrary information.

And it is you who has you head in a conspiracy sandbank.

Best of luck with your reality. Of course since you aren't willing to openly debate facts here with people who can challenge your assertions, you'll run along to another internet "echo chamber" where you can preach to the converted.

"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"

"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"

"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?"
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  14:55:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
[b]rumpl[b] said:
quote:
For those of you who have NOT decided to ignore contrary evidence simply because the government told you to... I'd start here:



Yes... you are just the epitome of openmindedness, aren't you?


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  15:33:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Rumpl4skn
If you guys are completely into denial about government evil,
On the contrary, we are very acutely aware that the US government is Evil. However, we don't believe the government is competent enough to execute the level of conspiracy that is suggested.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Rumpl4skn
New Member

25 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  15:56:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Rumpl4skn a Private Message
Sorry, only meant I was out of here to do my remodeling - I'm up to my ears in sawdust this week, not as much time to post up as I usually have. But no, I don't see me making a lot of headway in here, people seem to be convinced and uninterested in another look. I'm convinced the other way, and I admit that. But I don't label those on the other side as lunatics - we all believe what we believe.

Incidentally, I apologize - I posted the wrong video like for Loose Change 2. That one was the first edition. 2nd edition is far better, and that's why HalfMoon's comments about the missile threw me. Sorry for that, HalfMooner.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose+change

As far as our government's "ineptitude" making it unlikely they'd have pulled this off - (a) this is NOT purely a government op. Elements within the government have been complicit. But it wasn't something George W. Bush drew up on a desk. And (b) don't mistake the mess in Iraq as something that may have been deliberately constructed to simply destabilize, by the power elite. The BushKlan were along for the ride on 9/11, but they didn't write the script, and the elements that have benefitted from the Iraq War are the defense contractors. They're not that interested in Dubya's "democracy installation" concept - they want to see ordnance destroyed and equipment re-ordered, period. It's all about the weapons sales.


Taking other people's signatures and switching a few words around to make it opposite in meaning doesn't make you particularly clever. Although I admit I've done it myself, and it did make me FEEL more clever. : )
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  17:12:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
WHy don't you start with your single best piece of evidence that the 9/11 events were something other than a terrorist attack.

Just take the one bit that you think is the most compelling and lay it out for us.

That way the discussion atleast has some starting point other than you just dropping a steaming pile of unevidenced assertions into the compost heap.

You must understand that this is a skeptic forum. All claims of fact are subject to question, none will be accepted unless you can provide evidence that can withstand scrutiny and the application of basic logic.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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