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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1888 Posts

Posted - 04/27/2006 :  04:18:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox

One buzzphrase is “gay agenda”. The phrase has no meaning except from a warped or dishonest point of view. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_agenda


quote:
... overturning laws prohibiting pedophilia ...

This is a part of the "Gay Agenda"??? We have all read about "The Wedge Strategy". Where can I read more on the "Gay Agenda"? They must have an official web site, or is James Dobson just making shit up.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2998 Posts

Posted - 04/27/2006 :  05:32:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Snake
Bill, you are right, and if people were honest they'd admit they can't treat everyone equal every time.
A bigot is someone who favors his own group and what's wrong with that? It happens all the time. Buddies are always going to stick together. Gee, just thinking, it happens on this very site, often.



big·ot (bgt)
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Bigot \Big"ot\, n. [F. bigot a bigot or hypocrite, a name once
given to the Normans in France. Of unknown origin; possibly
akin to Sp. bigote a whisker; hombre de bigote a man of
spirit and vigor; cf. It. s-bigottire to terrify, to appall.
Wedgwood and others maintain that bigot is from the same
source as Beguine, Beghard.]
1. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite. [Obs.]

2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of
religion as unquestionably right, and any belief or
opinion opposed to or differing from them as unreasonable
or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is
intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in
politics or morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to
his own church, party, belief, or opinion.


in·tol·er·ant
adj.
Not tolerant, especially:

1) Unwilling to tolerate differences in opinions, practices, or beliefs, especially religious beliefs.
2) Opposed to the inclusion or participation of those different from oneself, especially those of a different racial, ethnic, or social background.
3) Unable or unwilling to endure or support: intolerant of interruptions; a community intolerant of crime.

(emphasis mine)

Your definition is a bit off.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
Edited by - pleco on 04/27/2006 05:43:09
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 04/27/2006 :  07:45:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
moakley, regarding "overturning laws prohibiting pedophilia", it's often said there's a grain of truth in all stereotypes. The grain of truth in that statement is this: in many states (not sure if it is most, but I know this is true in my old home state of Ohio.) the age of sexual consent for homosexual sex is higher than for heterosexual sex. In Ohio it is 18 for straights and 21 for gays. Those are the laws that gay rights activists want changed. They don't want the legal right to screw children. They wants the same rights as everyone else.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 04/27/2006 07:46:23
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 04/27/2006 :  08:00:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Since this is an event specifically for schools, I would like to point out what is missing from the Day of Truth's website's explanation of the Day of Silence. "Truth" claims only that "Silence" is to promote the "gay agenda". But like I pointed out earlier, the "gay agenda" is a pack of lies, distortions, and misconceptions about the gay rights movement. "Truth" also claims that the Day of Silence "silences Truth". But what truth does it silence? The point of the Day of Silence is to bring attention to prejudice against gays which is a hard reality. Now things are just starting to change in schools, but in most parts of the country and in the recent past everywhere, gay couples could not attend prom, either because of school rules against same-sex couples, or because of threat of severe and often violent reprocussions from classmates. It is also only fairly recently that gays in college (which is around the age most gay people realize their orientation) have had the support of organized clubs and community social networks. I heard a talk by a lesbian who attended college in the midwest in the 70's, and 7 of her friends who were also gay couldn't accept that reality and killed themselves before graduating. But even though gay suicide had decreased in recent times because of a more supportive social environment, it is still higher - especially among teens - than straight suicide. Some poor 15 year old boy in my hometown killed himself last year after spending a year trying to be straight and accepted at his all boys school.

So anyway, there is a pretty serious silence on "Truth"'s website, and that is the real info behind the motivations for the Day of Silence. But that's what bigots do - they don't have reason on their side, so they use lies and distortions. If you think the religious right leadership doesn't do that intentionally regarding the gay issue, you aren't paying close enough attention.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 04/27/2006 08:00:39
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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 04/27/2006 :  10:16:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message
quote:
In Ohio it is 18 for straights and 21 for gays.

Are you freaking SERIOUS.

That is the most absurd thing I've heard in a long time. It's funnier than hell in a strange warped sort of way. How could the legislature actually vote on something like that.



If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 04/27/2006 :  10:31:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Again, interesting stuff, Marf.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 04/27/2006 :  13:05:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by furshur

quote:
In Ohio it is 18 for straights and 21 for gays.

Are you freaking SERIOUS.

That is the most absurd thing I've heard in a long time. It's funnier than hell in a strange warped sort of way. How could the legislature actually vote on something like that.




That's what I thought too. [shakes head to clear fog and see if that's what the post really said.] Can you imagine writing that piece of legislation?



Edited by - beskeptigal on 04/27/2006 13:06:03
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dv82matt
SFN Regular

760 Posts

Posted - 04/27/2006 :  13:27:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dv82matt a Private Message
I suppose they fit the strict definition of 'bigot' but the term seems harsher than warrented to me. I would probably call them prejudiced, sanctimonious, or ignorant as a group. I'm sure individually some of them are bigots but some probably really believe they are reaching out in love and compassion.

Marf, that's a real eye opener about the different ages of consent. Wow. I did not know that. I can't imagine that it would withstand a rigourous court challenge.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9680 Posts

Posted - 04/27/2006 :  16:20:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
In Ohio it is 18 for straights and 21 for gays.

I told a coworker about this, and he only laughed, and continued "It used to be the same in England, except 16 and 21".
It's changed now and is 16 regardless of preference.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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trogdor
Skeptic Friend

198 Posts

Posted - 04/27/2006 :  18:46:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send trogdor a Private Message
I go to a liberal school. A really liberal school. A very, very, very liberal school.

I was torn as to whether I should participate in the day of silence. While I wanted to support my GLBT peers, I didn't know If I could stay silent all school day and I felt as though all the people who support gay rights shutting up for a day might not be a good idea.

In the end, I didn't talk. Neither did about 200 others. The quiet was incredible. As a symbolic protest it rocked.

all eyes were on Ford Prefect. some of them were on stalks.
-Douglas Adams
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trogdor
Skeptic Friend

198 Posts

Posted - 04/27/2006 :  18:49:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send trogdor a Private Message
the gay agenda

all eyes were on Ford Prefect. some of them were on stalks.
-Douglas Adams
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 04/27/2006 :  22:02:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
furshur wrote:
quote:
That is the most absurd thing I've heard in a long time. It's funnier than hell in a strange warped sort of way. How could the legislature actually vote on something like that.
I doubt the laws were made at the same time. They were probably discussed separately. But I really don't know.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 04/27/2006 :  22:19:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Matt wrote:
quote:
I suppose they fit the strict definition of 'bigot' but the term seems harsher than warrented to me. I would probably call them prejudiced, sanctimonious, or ignorant as a group. I'm sure individually some of them are bigots but some probably really believe they are reaching out in love and compassion.
Bigotry is not too harsh, and I'm really quite stunned that I'm even debating this on a skeptic forum. While there has been a good amount of progress for gay rights in the past 80 years (most in the past 30), gays still suffer incredible institutionalized discrimination.

-They cannot get married.
-In many states they cannot adopt. This despicable law in particular is threatening the family of a 10 year old boy: www.lethimstay.org
-They cannot join the military. Since the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy went into effect, gay "witchhunts" in the military have actually increased and in 2000 the expulsion rate of gays in the military had increased tenfold from before Don't Ask Don't Tell.
-Most states and the federal govt. does not provide the same minority protections to gays as to other minorities. As a result, hundreds of companies such as the Cracker Barrel have a no-gays hiring policy, and gay people all over the USA lose their jobs every year just because they are gay.

Many believe that the gay rights movement has recently reached a plateau, and the roadblock to further equality is only fundamentalist Christians who can't mind their own damn business. Once gay people actually have full legal equality in the USA, then I'll consider no longer using the "b" word.

Think about it for a minute. Why are they harping on this one issue? Premarital sex is mentioned in the Bible hundreds of times. But there are only 6 passages in the Bible that address same-sex sex. What is this considerable obsession with homosexuals that fundies have?

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 04/27/2006 22:25:42
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 04/27/2006 :  22:45:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Think about it for a minute. Why are they harping on this one issue? Premarital sex is mentioned in the Bible hundreds of times. But there are only 6 passages in the Bible that address same-sex sex. What is this considerable obsession with homosexuals that fundies have?

Isn't it obvious? It is a group fundies can single out as different, dangerous, and other. While there have been some notorious cases of gay-bashing preachers who turn out to be gay themselves, for the most part "turning gay" is not a temptation any of these hate mongers will ever have to grapple with. Therefore, for a heterosexual pastor with a pretty wife and five kids, homosexuality is a "safe" sin to rail against. Come out as equally harsh on a subject like adultery or divorce and now you're vilifying half of your own congregation, not to mention running the risk of one day having to eat your own words. Can't have that.

Of course, any gay children these people produce will basically be born into a nightmare of scorn, humiliation, self-loathing, and most likely eventual ostracism.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/27/2006 22:47:47
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dv82matt
SFN Regular

760 Posts

Posted - 04/27/2006 :  23:49:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dv82matt a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Bigotry is not too harsh, and I'm really quite stunned that I'm even debating this on a skeptic forum.
I'm a bit stunned that you're stunned actually. To me bigot is a very harsh term reserved for fairly heinous acts and attitudes.
quote:
While there has been a good amount of progress for gay rights in the past 80 years (most in the past 30), gays still suffer incredible institutionalized discrimination.
I agree that they are discriminated against. Though I'm not sure it's as extreme as you make out.
quote:

-They cannot get married.
-In many states they cannot adopt. This despicable law in particular is threatening the family of a 10 year old boy: www.lethimstay.org
-They cannot join the military. Since the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy went into effect, gay "witchhunts" in the military have actually increased and in 2000 the expulsion rate of gays in the military had increased tenfold from before Don't Ask Don't Tell.
-Most states and the federal govt. does not provide the same minority protections to gays as to other minorities. As a result, hundreds of companies such as the Cracker Barrel have a no-gays hiring policy, and gay people all over the USA lose their jobs every year just because they are gay.

Okay, but doesn't Cracker Barrel having a no-gays hiring policy mean that the policy makers at Cracker Barrel are bigots. What's the connection to the fundies of the OP? Same with the military example.
quote:

Many believe that the gay rights movement has recently reached a plateau, and the roadblock to further equality is only fundamentalist Christians who can't mind their own damn business.


Yeah, frustrating I know, they can be so damn sanctimonious. Personally I'm of the opinion that the gay rights movement has yet to peak and won't at least until marriage and adoption rights are made equal. The US is a bit behind the rest of the world on gay rights I think.
quote:
Once gay people actually have full legal equality in the USA, then I'll consider no longer using the "b" word.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not offended by your use of 'bigot'. Don't censor yourself on my account.
quote:
Think about it for a minute. Why are they harping on this one issue? Premarital sex is mentioned in the Bible hundreds of times. But there are only 6 passages in the Bible that address same-sex sex. What is this considerable obsession with homosexuals that fundies have?

I agree that it's a distasteful hang up that they have. I guess the problem I have with calling them bigots is that many of them are actually well intentioned but misinformed. The word bigot just seems unnessessarily divisive.
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