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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
 Posted - 04/28/2006 : 10:28:01 [Permalink]
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| Thank you. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 10:54:27 [Permalink]
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I am not sure what you a looking for here, Gorgo:quote:
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 10:00:57
Please give me your sources that show that this is a psychoanalysis, and to show that I ever claimed to have an M.D. after my name.
Perhaps I should quote myself:quote:
Gorgo, you said:quote:
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 07:56:48
It is necessary to create an eternity in order to give his life worth. Therefore, he believes that life has little worth, and must create a lie to give it worth. He believes he and his life are worth little, and is angry about that. Not wanting to face his own feelings and his own anger, he projects that anger upon others.
This bears a striking resemblance to a psychoanalysis. In this statement, there is no subjectivity qualifier, which you later claim here:quote:
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 08:55:20
I've made it very clear that these are my own observations. Based on what people tell me. I can read very clearly that he is saying that life isn't worth much if there is no eternity.
You obviously had not "made it very clear," since prior to your 08:55:20 post, you only make an assertion without evidence in this thread. I clearly need to repeat myself, since you didn't notice it before. Your 07:56:48 post bore a "striking resemblance to a psychoanalysis."
You have made seemingly unjustified statements about a group of people and have provided no evidence to back them up. If you are unwilling to provide the most rudimentary concession to evidence, I see no reason for anybody to continue this discussion with you.
leoofno, at least, has been able to provide a quote as evidence. My contempt is not for your conclusions, Gorgo, it's for your argument. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 10:58:55 [Permalink]
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| Boron, please refer to the opening post and the link to which it refers for information about what this thread is about and to what my comments refer. As to whatever else you're talking about, either one of us doesn't read English, or one of us doesn't write English because it doesn't seem like an apology. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/28/2006 10:59:54 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 11:07:12 [Permalink]
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Here's a letter I just wrote to Newsweek regarding the piece: quote:
To the Editors:
I found Rabbi Gellman's recent piece, "Trying to Understand Angry Atheists," to be rather disingenuous. He argues that while he does not know "many religious folk who wake up thinking of new ways to aggravate atheists," there are "many people who do not believe in God seem to find the religion of their neighbors terribly offensive or oppressive, particularly if the folks next door are evangelical Christians." Really? I doubt Gellman can cite actual data supporting the notion that atheists are unusually angry towards Christians. Indeed, it's not hard to imagine that Gellman's impression is based largely on anecdotal evidence culled from letters sent from an often vocal minority.
Moreover, Gellman seems to be amazingly ignorant of the sentiment expressed by pundits (and even politicians) from the far-right towards atheists. Indeed, in just a few weeks the wildly popular Ann Coulter will release a new book entitled _Godless_ which, among other things, "smears" liberals by arguing that they are, for all intents and purposes, well, godless. It is not difficult to imagine that Coulter and people of her ilk often wake up thinking up ways to "aggravate atheists." Indeed, the religious right frequently blames much of society's ills on godlessness.
Of course, Gellman tries to blunt his remarks by saying that he "doesn't mean" to generalize his observation of atheist anger to all atheists, but he does so nevertheless. For Gellman, atheists are never so for sound, logical reasons, or after much thought and contemplation. Instead, Gellman sees it as stemming from "uncomfortable personal histories" or from the fact that for the hedonistically-inclined, "religion must remain an audacious, daring and, yes, uncomfortable assault on our desires to do what we want when we want to do it." For Gellman, atheists are weak-willed people in need of therapy.
In contrast, Gellman argues that religious people have discipline, and that it is only through religion that we can "overcome racism and materialism, selfishness and arrogance and the sinful oppression of the most vulnerable and the most innocent among us." Yet atheists make up only the smallest segment of society. Is it really rational to imagine that the many problems in this country-- along with all of its "selfishness and arrogance"-- come from such a small group?
Sadly, such sentiments are not unique to Gellman. Polls consistantly show that people are far less likely to vote for an atheist than for most other groups imaginable. And the aforementioned Coulter is but one example of numerous right-wing pundits seek to (dare I say angrily?) stereotype non-Judeo-Christians (atheists included) in the most unflattering of ways.
Yes, some atheists are angry. But given the general sentiment the vast majority of Americans-- particularly the religious right-- have towards atheists (and we can now clearly include Gellman among them), it's not surprising to see why.
And yes, you'll see some information in the letter that I clearly got from SFN but, for a variety of reasons, didn't credit. So let me do so here! |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 04/28/2006 11:09:45 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 11:28:04 [Permalink]
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| I wouldnt know im an anuminist, those athiests are weird I dont think they should be considered patriots nor citizens. (insert spitting in disgust smiley) |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 12:17:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
[You obviously had not "made it very clear," since prior to your 08:55:20 post, you only make an assertion without evidence in this thread.
By the way, Kil made the statement that I keep making assertions, which alludes to the fact that this goes beyond this thread. I was referring to other threads. This thread now includes that statement, so I would think it would now be clear to those that read and understand English, especially since I never claimed to have any letters behind my name at all. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26034 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 12:26:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
...those that read and understand English...
The more you use that attack, Gorgo, against people who are obviously English-capable, the more crystal-clear it becomes that you're calling them stupid, just using six words instead of six letters. So, why is it that you dislike yourself so much, Gorgo?quote:
...especially since I never claimed to have any letters behind my name at all.
What part of "armchair pseudo-psychological opinion" suggests that you've got a degree of any sort, Gorgo? By your standards, it should "be clear to those that read and understand English" that nobody was claiming that you're actually a psychologist. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 12:34:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
The more you use that attack, Gorgo, against people who are obviously English-capable, the more crystal-clear it becomes that you're calling them stupid, just using six words instead of six letters. So, why is it that you dislike yourself so much, Gorgo?
Thank you. Finally an inkling that someone begins to understand.
quote:
What part of "armchair pseudo-psychological opinion" suggests that you've got a degree of any sort, Gorgo? By your standards, it should "be clear to those that read and understand English" that nobody was claiming that you're actually a psychologist.
Thank you again. I understood those sentences. What is it that someone is claiming? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/28/2006 12:36:02 |
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 12:40:35 [Permalink]
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As so often happens, this topic also arose in the Skepticality forums. I wrote a response to Gellman's article there. I also sent my reply to MSNBC and an invitation to Gellman to join that Skepticality thread.
I congratulate Cuneiformist for expressing his views to Newsweek. They are not the same as my own, but at least it is an attempt to get alternative viewpoints out there - to counter the dishonest rhetorical vitriol coming out of persons like Gellman.
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 12:55:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
it becomes that you're calling them stupid, just using six words instead of six letters.
Please also explain this sentence if you will. Have I not made it clear to all those that read and understand English that I have no letters after my name? I made one other statement regarding English which includes myself meaning that I do not understand the problem.
Since I don't understand, Are you telling me that I'm a moron? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/28/2006 13:00:37 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 12:56:44 [Permalink]
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Why can't Rabbi Gellman (and too many other religious people, including other relative moderates like the Rabbi) simply realize that a person's happiness or unhappiness stems primarily from their personal outlook, based upon their internal character and their experiences, rather than primarily from their belief or disbelief? Few of us have read Camus and then forever become brooding pessimists.
Just because so many fundies are clearly burdened with hate all their waking lives, I do not assume that their belief system is the main cause of this self-evident hateful unhappiness. Rather, for the most part, I assume their choice to worship an angry, authoritarian God reflects their own angry, authoritarian human character.
Obviously, there are happy Christians, Jews, Animists, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Wiccans, and atheists -- and also quite unhappy examples of all of these. As an agnostic/atheist, I personally would be much happier if more religious people would simply recognize that a person's optimism or pessimism about the universe stem primarily from whether they are a half-full or half-empty kind of person, not from their beliefs regarding religion.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 12:59:57 [Permalink]
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| Very well said, HalfMooner. In fact, those that we call "liberals" have rejected most of the nonsense about religion. They think for themselves. That doesn't make them happy. The decision to be happy is just about the only thing that makes one happy. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 13:02:10 [Permalink]
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| Well, I can clearly see that I there is nothing in Rabbi Gellman's article to make me reconsider my departure from the religious fold. Just some of the same old arguments: we're better behaved with religion, have happier and more fulfilled lives. Nothing that addresses if any of it is true or not. I'll keep looking. |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26034 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 13:05:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Thank you again.
You're welcome.quote:
I understood those sentences.
Except one was a question, but I won't be a stickler for details.quote:
What is it that someone is claiming?
They're not. They seem to me to be wondering the same thing I'm wondering, more or less: why is it that you, Gorgo, appear to feel that it's okay to denigrate someone using lots of words, the meaning of which boil down to "you're stupid," yet you feel it's not okay for someone to take the shortcut of simply using the word "stupid?" Obviously, I am not referring to this thread in particular, but to the overall trend which you've acknowledged that others - Kil and I in particular - have noticed about you. Instead, I'm talking about the ear-candling thread, the Sagan quote discussion, and every time you've failed to take Snake to task when she calls SFN members stupid (not in so few words, of course). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26034 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 13:14:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Please also explain this sentence if you will.
Okay, apparently your earlier assessment, "Finally an inkling that someone begins to understand," was premature, since if you didn't understand what I was saying, then you couldn't possibly conclude that I was beginning to understand you.quote:
Have I not made it clear to all those that read and understand English that I have no letters after my name?
Yes, and whether or not you have a degree is utterly irrelevant to the questions which were posed to you.quote:
I made one other statement regarding English which includes myself meaning that I do not understand the problem.
No, apparently I don't, either.quote:
Since I don't understand, Are you telling me that I'm a moron?
No, I'm the moron for having even tried this again. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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