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Tiptup
Skeptic Friend
USA
86 Posts |
 Posted - 05/26/2001 : 21:25:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnPaul Slater:
If you keep such an open mind about this particular God, do you feel the same way about the thousands of other Gods?
I don't want to speak for @tomic, but I think he was just referring to the general idea of a God, not the God of the bible.
Tiptup
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I DON'T MAKE SENSE-I GOT MY PRIDE; DON'T NEED NO MEANING; I FEEL NO SHAME-I WILL NOT BELIEVE; I GOT NO CHOICE-I'M OUT OF CONTROL; AND I LOVE IT!! |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2001 : 21:27:22 [Permalink]
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Tiptup is right.
You see I am an agnostic. I am not professing to believe in any god. I don't think you could prove or disprove Apollo 100%. However, I do think that you could make a good case against his existence. The same goes for a Christian God. Maybe I'm just being nitpicky.
I personally do not believe in God. I have yet to see any evidence for one. I would be extremely skeptical of any evidence. Who wouldn't....heh.
I have to say something about the claims of miracles performed by Jesus in the Bible and calling that historical evidence. Are reports of UFOs historical evidence for extraterrestrial visitation? Are old TV clips of Uri Geller bending spoons evidence of paranormal abilities? I would have to say no, but plenty of people continue to believe in Uri geller's powers despite the fact that he was publicly shown to be a fraud. None of this proves that Jesus didn't perform miracles. My point is that maybe these stories should be taken with a grain of salt.
Even with the different styles, tones, and target audiences, they are all expressing one overarching message.
I think if you read between the lines a little more and maybe a history book or two you might see that some of what's in the Bible is political. Not only that but the political reality at the time the OT was written was different than that of about 30 AD.
One example(yes from that PBS show) was when Jesus went to the Pharisees. When Jesus was alive this group was not very powerful, but at the time the Gospels were written they had attained a greater degree of power. I guess Jesus could still have gone to them, but it would not have been a very big deal to the people of the year 30.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2001 : 21:39:00 [Permalink]
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"But suffice to say, the bible's statements in no way contradict science and in fact support scientific common sense."
I'm sorry, but this is just patently absurd. I simply MUST here you justify this statement...
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Gambatte kudasai! |
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Tiptup
Skeptic Friend
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2001 : 21:40:33 [Permalink]
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Hey Kurisu-san, go to the creationism section and name a statement the bible makes about something scientific that is incorrect. In fact, I'll create a specific thread just for that topic.
And @tomic, I do not see how the idea that the Pharisees were not as powerful at the time Jesus went to see them as they were when the gospels were written implies anything. In fact in the gospels it speaks of the Pharisees as a group with very little real power, although they seemed to puff themselves up. Also the idea that the writers of the gospels might have devoted more space to the Pharisees because they had become more powerful is something I could possibly agree with. Who knows, from a "fundie" perspective maybe God planned for the Pharisees to gain power later as a way to get his writers to devote more space to the wonderful teachings Jesus gave in relation to the Pharisees.
Tiptup
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I DON'T MAKE SENSE-I GOT MY PRIDE; DON'T NEED NO MEANING; I FEEL NO SHAME-I WILL NOT BELIEVE; I GOT NO CHOICE-I'M OUT OF CONTROL; AND I LOVE IT!! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2001 : 21:41:37 [Permalink]
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Tiptop a fundamentalist question, if you would.
Lunch in the park today, I found the serenity of my tuna salad shattered by a group of morbidly obese, singing, dancing, tambourine playing, lesbians.
They were members of the Church of Wicca loudly celebrating their Freedom of Religion.
Is it not ignoring a clear and unequivocal statement of the bible to suffer these witches to live? (I almost typed a "b" instead of a "w")
When the dead talk -- they talk to him |
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Tiptup
Skeptic Friend
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2001 : 21:43:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnPaul Slater:
Is it not ignoring a clear and unequivocal statement of the bible to suffer these witches to live?
To answer your question, I would have to say no. There are a number of reasons for this, biblically, but just remember that the US is not a theocracy. I caught a nasty flu bug yesterday, so that will have to suffice for now.
Tiptup
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I DON'T MAKE SENSE-I GOT MY PRIDE; DON'T NEED NO MEANING; I FEEL NO SHAME-I WILL NOT BELIEVE; I GOT NO CHOICE-I'M OUT OF CONTROL; AND I LOVE IT!! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2001 : 21:44:21 [Permalink]
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I know that the United States frowns upon having it's citizens burned at stakes. (Of course the Bush administration hasn't started yet) But you lead me to believe that fundimentalists did not pick and choose the parts of the bible that were convienient at the time or suited their temperments, unlike those other folks who only call themselves Christian.You also implied that real morality did not change with the fashons.
Doesn't the KJV insist that you not suffer a witch to live? (The Wicca probably interrupted good King Jim's lunch too) Who are you going to listen to, the changing laws of mere man or the unchanging laws of the lord God? (If you answer the latter—don't tell the police that I said you should X the Wicca.)
Feel better soon.
When the dead talk -- they talk to him |
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He
New Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2001 : 21:45:22 [Permalink]
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Hello;Don't mind if I put my two cents in do yea!Thanks;He.
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Tiptup
Skeptic Friend
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2001 : 21:47:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JohnPaul Slater:
-you lead me to believe that fundimentalists did not pick and choose the parts of the bible that were convienient at the time or suited their temperments, unlike those other folks who only call themselves Christian.You also implied that real morality did not change with the fashons.
I do believe that. But distinctions have to be made from one section of scripture to another. In other words, fundamentalists must treat Moses' societal laws for the nation of Israel different than Jesus saying that he who is without sin cast the first stone. I will try to talk more about this later.
Doesn't the KJV insist that you not suffer a witch to live?
Yes, but first we must see that the word for witch does not specifically apply to Wicca. Secondly, even if it did, the bible no longer requires such human punishment and this is especially true in the Untied States.
Now before I go, I wanna talk about that TV show, I remember it exactly. The woman was a honey bunny for one the SS's top "religious" leaders. (I agree that she was rather pretty considering her age.) He was a slob and pig who believed that Christianity had its basis in the old pagan beliefs of Germany, and that all that Jesus and Jew nonsense messed up the true faith of the German people. Also, when she referred to the SS soldiers she did say you couldn't ask for more moral Christians, but as far as I remember, she never said they were Christians. And finally someone would have to have a misguided view of history to think the Nazis were Christians (although the Nazis tried to say they were).
Feel better soon.
Thanks, I'll try.
Tiptup
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I DON'T MAKE SENSE-I GOT MY PRIDE; DON'T NEED NO MEANING; I FEEL NO SHAME-I WILL NOT BELIEVE; I GOT NO CHOICE-I'M OUT OF CONTROL; AND I LOVE IT!! |
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Tiptup
Skeptic Friend
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2001 : 21:48:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by He:
Hello;Don't mind if I put my two cents in do yea!Thanks;He.
Go ahead.
Tiptup
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I DON'T MAKE SENSE-I GOT MY PRIDE; DON'T NEED NO MEANING; I FEEL NO SHAME-I WILL NOT BELIEVE; I GOT NO CHOICE-I'M OUT OF CONTROL; AND I LOVE IT!! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2001 : 21:49:20 [Permalink]
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I asked the Wicca if they were witchs and they said yes they were. They explained that all that turning people into newts, riding on broom sticks and having sex with Satan at a "black mass" was stuff Xians accused them of. They never did any of that stuff. Funny just how many different types of people (including the Atheists in this forum) the Xians have accused of terrible things that just weren't true.
In believe the Wicca had their most problems on this side of the Atlantic with Fundis and not those unnamed pseudo Christians.
The original King Arthur stories were from the Celtic (I should point out that the word "pagan" is not a type of religion but a slanderous term) but by the time the Germans got their paws on it their version had been through Chrétien de Troyes and Wagner and was a total Christian legend.
Hitler actually acquired the lance head that stabbed JC on the cross. It's still on exibition in Berlin if you ever get over there.
When the dead talk -- they talk to him |
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Tiptup
Skeptic Friend
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2001 : 21:53:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JohnPaul Slater:
I asked the Wicca if they were witchs and they said yes they were. They explained that all that turning people into newts, riding on broom sticks and having sex with Satan at a "black mass" was stuff Xians accused them of. They never did any of that stuff. Funny just how many different types of people (including the Atheists in this forum) the Xians have accused of terrible things that just weren't true.
Hey you want to criticize the majority of the Christian community for being sensationalistic and stupid, I can agree quite a bit. I believe Jesus' teachings in the Old Testament support a libertarian style government. Being associated with a government think tank, you most likely hold some sort of liberal viewpoint (I hope I'm wrong about that). At any rate, I don't believe in legislating morality, whether liberal or conservative. This is especially true when it comes to people in other religions.
One of my fav radio shows to listen to is the Art Bell show (Hey did you hear he is coming back Feb 5th?). I enjoy listening to what all these other PAGAN religions believe, its interesting stuff.
In believe the Wicca had their most problems on this side of the Atlantic with Fundis and not those unnamed pseudo Christians.
Yep, quite possibly...
The original King Arthur stories were from the Celtic-
I know, I was talking about what those Nazi nuts believed. The SS thought both King Arthur and Christianity were pieces of the original German religion.
(I should point out that the word "pagan" is not a type of religion but a slanderous term) but by the time the Germans got their paws on it their version had been through Chrétien de Troyes and Wagner and was a total Christian legend.
I know pagan is a slanderous term. As for the Germans turning King Arthur into a "total Christian legend", that's lovely but just what about their skewing has anything to do with true Christianity?
Tiptup
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I DON'T MAKE SENSE-I GOT MY PRIDE; DON'T NEED NO MEANING; I FEEL NO SHAME-I WILL NOT BELIEVE; I GOT NO CHOICE-I'M OUT OF CONTROL; AND I LOVE IT!! |
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He
New Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2001 : 21:54:14 [Permalink]
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Papaver ask this question;"Did Jesus really exist?"
Can anyone prove that the Emperor Nero really existed?We have history books written about him to;and who do you think wrote them?Did Nero write about himself or did someone else write the story of his cruel and wicked legacy.I'm not for sure but it seems to me that the same people that you say tampered with the Bible;Are responsible for writting our History!!A little leaven,leaveneth the whole lump.Therefore we all are in the dark not knowing the truth.
JohnPaulSlater;Faith is believing in something not seen;according unto my dictionary;faith is having confidence in or dependence on a person,statement,or thing as trustworthy.I suppose you have to have a little faith to believe that our history books are true.Since none of us was there to witness those things that happened.Like I said before,God has dealt all man a measure of faith.While we are here on this earth,it's up to us to choose how we use it.
To establish anything in the Bible to be the truth,such as scriptures or anything else that needs to be established as the truth.It had to be done in the order that God set for them to do it.For an example,Mark wrote the gospel but he had to do it with at the least two witnesses that was there when those things happened.The two witnesses dictated to Mark those things they witness of Jesus Christ and Mark wrote them down.These things were done under the inspiration of God.
To prove that Jesus Christ did exist,one has to prove the Bible's historical claims are reliable.
>The fact that fundamentalists of every strip,Catholic,Protestant,Morman,Batist,
Muslim,etc.,claim that they and only they are going to heaven-brings down the whole house of cards.How could they be right?They are equally convinced,equally fooled,and equally brainwashed.
(2nd Thessalonians 2:11)Is a good example of how this world is.A Christian is suppose to be wise as a serpent but harmless as a dove.Therefore whosoever commits the act of unrightousness;such as fornication,
covetousness,being filled with envy,strife,unmerciful,despiteful,proud,
boasters,murderers,haters,disobedient to parents,and without natural affection are not Christians.Thanks;He.
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He
New Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2001 : 21:54:46 [Permalink]
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I am amazed at how the truth works.Even though it was said that I have the IQ of a potato;Yet:There is no answer from the wise and prudent.I am concerned at this because I thought that this was the Skeptic Network where the people with open minds dwell.Yea,in time pass,I also blasphemed God by saying he didn't exist,because I was focussing my attention on the Christians of this world seeing how they do.But thanks be to God who lives forever and ever:and thanks be to his Son Jesus Christ for delivering me out of that lie and out of that delusion!!Thanks;He.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2001 : 21:57:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by He:
Can anyone prove that the Emperor Nero really existed?
Yes.
quote:
For an example,Mark wrote the gospel but he had to do it with at the least two witnesses that was there when those things happened.The two witnesses dictated to Mark those things they witness of Jesus Christ and Mark wrote them down.These things were done under the inspiration of God.
Yea, I say unto you, He: Prove it.
quote:
To prove that Jesus Christ did exist,one has to prove the Bible's historical claims are reliable.
Right! (though I'm not sure that you said this, it's too coherent, is this a quote from someone else?)
quote:
(2nd Thessalonians 2:11)Is a good example of how this world is.A Christian is suppose to be wise as a serpent but harmless as a dove.Therefore whosoever commits the act of unrightousness;such as fornication,
covetousness,being filled with envy,strife,unmerciful,despiteful,proud,
boasters,murderers,haters,disobedient to parents,and without natural affection are not Christians.Thanks;He.
So you are saying unto us, that yea, there is no such thing as a Christian..
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Gambatte kudasai! |
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