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 A secret dictatorship?
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2006 :  15:38:03  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Those of you who have followed my political ramblings may recall that I have sometimes in passing expressed a worry that George W. Bush might not stand down at the end of his term, but use the guise of some kind of national emergency to justify a coup and his remaining in office. I have carefully stated that this is improbable, but the idea continues to bother me.

But another, maybe more probable, possibility exists. What if the "coup" has already, secretly, taken place? Might the public not even know?

There is growing evidence that both the 2000 and the 2004 Presidential elections were won by Bush by rigging alone. Now the potential, if not the reality, of computer voting machine fraud is increasingly being exposed, though only faintly so in the mainstream media.

Imagine what would be required to establish a "secret dictatorship" in the guise of continuing democracy: Control of the Presidency, the Supreme Court, Congress, and election-monitoring offices in key states. Fraudulent voting machines and the political hacks they churn out could be officially certified as legitimate. Citizens would be electronically monitored, and this very monitoring would become a State secret. Most free speech would still be allowed, aside from the continuing long-term trend of increasingly tight control by corporate media.

Only a relative few people, aside from the conspirators, would be aware that democracy was dead, or care, so long as most of people's daily freedoms were not noticeably reduced. And the conspirators could pretend to be skeptics, and dismiss critics as conspiracy nuts.

There would be signs, "dead give-aways," if such a secret dictatorship were real.

This scenario would require a vast conspiracy indeed, something on the scale of a national political party. And there would be leaks in any real conspiracy. (Such as glimpses of voting machine fraud and vote rigging.) Another thing you'd doubtless see, if such a bizarre secret dictatorship were anything but the product of fevered mind, would be a growing contempt for the people by leaders who no longer need to care about public opinion.

Press conferences would become mere propaganda outlets, with no real questions being answered. Leaders' "public" appearances would be with carefully vetted crowds only. Unfettered by reality reflected by a voting public, a "secret dictator" would be prone to wild military adventurism, to cronyism, and to consorting with corrupt power brokers. Death and disaster affecting thousands would be handled with contemptuous benign neglect.

I'm sure glad we see none of these signs.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.

Chippewa
SFN Regular

USA
1496 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2006 :  17:04:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Chippewa's Homepage Send Chippewa a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Those of you who have followed my political ramblings may recall that I have sometimes in passing expressed a worry that George W. Bush might not stand down at the end of his term...


Those are interesting observations. One thing I haven't seen yet. I was under the impression that the Bush dynasty was near the core of of all this, but if so, it seems that they'd be grooming Jeb more by now to run next year and be "elected" (by DieBold or another Supreme Court appointment.)

Another scary aspect is the NeoCon penchant for using disasters for political gain. I mean it seems that everything they do is motivated for propaganda uses, despite W's constant bungling. As with 9/11, maybe they're thinking of using the growing Middle East conflicts through cultivating-in-the-appearance-of-diplomacy, so that it grows large enough for W to stay in office and postpone the election "for the good of our freedoms". (Too over-the-top?)

Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.

"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.)
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2006 :  17:54:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
Run next year? I think you can expect to see Jeb in the '08 primary but I'm not sure GW hasn't poisoned the Bush name well at least for now. There'll be someone connected to this group of sleazeballs. You can count on that.

See my post (Posted - 07/24/2006 : 18:29:05 PST) in this thread.



Edited by - beskeptigal on 07/24/2006 18:32:53
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2006 :  19:14:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
I'm going to move this to the election machine fraud video thread then delete it here. HM has a lot of threads that all tie together.

moved, 07/24/2006 : 19:17:06 PST

Edited by - beskeptigal on 07/24/2006 19:19:56
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2006 :  20:14:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Half, I know you're upset about the current administration. Indeed, it is horribly corrupt and likes to keep its secrets. But I don't think it is particularly healthy to indulge in such vast conspiracy theories, even if it is just a thought experiment. It's just my opinion, but I think politics is better dealt with in specifics and details, not grand theories. And such as conspiracy as you describe could not happen since there would be too many people in on it, and enough freedom temping them to constantly squeal.

Part of the problem of sorting this all out is that governments typically are corrupt at least to some degree, so the question is at what point do we say we no longer have a legit democracy? My evaluation is that we've never had a true democracy in America, but we've gotten closer than most, and that in-of-itself is an achievement. Same goes for having a truly "free" and truly "enlightened" society. And hell, some question whether democracy is even all that great a thing since it often amount to the majority oppressing the minority. Everything's relative. In the words of Winston Churchill (paraphrasing 'cause I can't find the exact wording): "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others."

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 07/24/2006 20:18:04
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2006 :  20:47:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
Then what do you think of my posts, Martha? I tried to stick to facts not grand theories but there is subversion of the democratic process going on here on an overwhelming scale.

You can answer in the other thread where I posted everything.

Edited by - beskeptigal on 07/24/2006 20:47:44
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2006 :  02:32:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
And such as conspiracy as you describe could not happen since there would be too many people in on it, and enough freedom temping them to constantly squeal.



Who writes the code for electronic voting machines?

It would only require a very small number of people, in the correct positions within the company that makes those machines, to alter a few lines of code.

I'm not claiming any such thing has occurred, or will, but it doesn't require any kind of "vast" conspiracy. Two people are all you would need (one really, but it takes two to have a conspiracy).

The only way to make sure electronic voting machines are free from tampering is to make all the source code and machine design public, and allow advocacy/watchdog groups full access to monitor elections and voting machines by reviewing random machines for correct technical specs and proper source code.

The US has a long history of election fraud. We'd like to stand up and claim that we always have honest elections... but when dead people cast votes in chicago and FL can't even count it's votes properly, there are problems. We know there are people out there who have no qualms about manipulating the system and breaking laws to get elected. It doesn't take alot of people, and it happens all the time anyway. FL 2000, Ohio 2004, both fine examples. A small number of people manipulated election procedures to ensure a specific outcome.

Electronic voting machines, made by a company who donates exclusively to the republican party, whose owners are diehard republicans, should be enough to give pause to anyone capable of tying their own shoes.

Electronic voting machines hold promise as a tool, but there isn't enough oversight currently to protect ourselves from the ambition of a few people who know how to manipulate this bit of technology. We SHOULD be paranoid about it, even if that paranoia is ultimately baseless, until there is a way to adequately monitor elections with these machines.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2006 :  02:44:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox

Half, I know you're upset about the current administration. Indeed, it is horribly corrupt and likes to keep its secrets. But I don't think it is particularly healthy to indulge in such vast conspiracy theories, even if it is just a thought experiment. It's just my opinion, but I think politics is better dealt with in specifics and details, not grand theories. And such as conspiracy as you describe could not happen since there would be too many people in on it, and enough freedom temping them to constantly squeal.

Part of the problem of sorting this all out is that governments typically are corrupt at least to some degree, so the question is at what point do we say we no longer have a legit democracy? My evaluation is that we've never had a true democracy in America, but we've gotten closer than most, and that in-of-itself is an achievement. Same goes for having a truly "free" and truly "enlightened" society. And hell, some question whether democracy is even all that great a thing since it often amount to the majority oppressing the minority. Everything's relative. In the words of Winston Churchill (paraphrasing 'cause I can't find the exact wording): "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others."

Well, Martha, I will pose the argument thusly:

1. There's pretty good evidence that the last two Presidential elections, and several other elections, were "fixed" by operatives of the Republican Party. Since many others here have repeatedly and convincingly presented evidence of this, I will not repeat it now.

2. If the first point is true, it follows that the regime in power now was not democratically elected.

3. If not democratically elected, the present regime is a dictatorship, more or less by default.

4. Yes, vast conspiracies, since they are made up of humans, always must leak like sieves. Maybe that's why we know about this one. The conspirators are the present leaders of the vast right-wing Republican Party. Any national political party engages in hidden/covert activities as part of its nature. Winning elections, often by whatever means is necessary, is a primary skill of political parties.

5. Some conspiracies are real. They are a normal human activity. This might be one such case.

6. I think it's a damn lot "healthier" to consider whether we might already be in a dictatorship than to ignore that terrible possibility.

7. Yes, corruption has long been endemic in American politics, though less so than in some other nations I have visited. But I'm primarily talking here about something new to our nation: Dictatorship dressed up pretty, not "mere" corruption. Though the terms are related, they should not be confused. Much of the corruption of the present regime may indeed be result of the opportunities provided by its seizure of autocratic power.

On which points above am I wrong? I would be delighted to be shown my errors.



Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/25/2006 03:24:47
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2006 :  09:32:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
A dictator is an absolute ruler. I don't know that Bush has reached that far yet.

That doesn't mean that he's not working on it, for him or his party.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2006 :  13:18:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

A dictator is an absolute ruler. I don't know that Bush has reached that far yet.

That doesn't mean that he's not working on it, for him or his party.

When Nixon was facing impeachment, there was a fear among the anti-war movement he would declare martial law and take over the government. I was too young and politically uneducated to know how real that threat actually was. I think this administration is capable of something similar should it look like they are going to lose all power to the Democrats.

But I'm not sure they could actually get away with it. And I would think they are more likely to keep working on skewing elections in their favor and controlling the media rather than publicly declaring their intentions.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2006 :  13:40:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
I wouldn't put anything past them. People say they're too dumb to put something like that together, but I don't know about that either.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2006 :  13:51:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
When Nixon was facing impeachment, there was a fear among the anti-war movement he would declare martial law and take over the government. I was too young and politically uneducated to know how real that threat actually was. I think this administration is capable of something similar should it look like they are going to lose all power to the Democrats.



Well, there is one positive aspect to that. We can buy all the firearms we want to at the moment. I recommend you stock up, if you think there is any chance such an event could occur. I'm already well stocked, but only because I enjoy eating small(and sometimes large) animals and the challenge of long-range marksmanship.

Personally I would put the chance of such an event occuring in the "very remote" category. But hey, the second ammendment was written with just such an event in mind.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2006 :  14:09:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Dude wrote:
quote:
It would only require a very small number of people, in the correct positions within the company that makes those machines, to alter a few lines of code.

I'm not claiming any such thing has occurred, or will, but it doesn't require any kind of "vast" conspiracy. Two people are all you would need (one really, but it takes two to have a conspiracy).


What are you talking about? Yes, a small number of people write the codes for the machines - so they'd all have to be in on it together. Of course the machines are distributed all over the country, operated, and checked by lots of other people - so they'd all have to be in on it. Not to mention that the programming would have to be sophisticated enough to target specific areas so it wouldn't be obviously skewed. For instance, if a highly Demoncratic area goes 70% for a Republican, it would be obviously rigged to any reasonable person. And then from what Half is suggesting, this is coming from on high, so all the leaders up the ladder know about. How do you get that a nationwide fixing of the Presidential election would be handled by one person?

As for response on my remarks from Half - I can't refute anything you are saying because none of it is really specific enough and you don't define your terms well enough. That was the point of my comments.

beskeptical wrote:
quote:
Then what do you think of my posts, Martha? I tried to stick to facts not grand theories but there is subversion of the democratic process going on here on an overwhelming scale.


I'm not reading all the conversations on SFN and I'm not sure what you want me to respond to. In general I agree, you usually stick to facts, and I agree with most of the opinions and analysis you express on this forum. As for whether the subversion of the democratic process in America right now is "on an overwhelming scale" - that is, again, relative to one's perspective. I see what you're saying though.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2006 :  14:14:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
This thread and this one are overlapping considerably. This is what I posted there which really fits here better:

Here's the tally so far:

Darn near complete control of mainstream media.

Voter fraud and abuse in key states either changing votes or making sure thousands of Democrats are purged from the voter registration roles or use of other means to make sure they can't vote like 8 hour waits and mixed up polling addresses or invalidate their votes in a multitude of other ways.

Bribery for votes in the form of million dollar tax money grants to large black or otherwise typically Democratic voting congregations disguised as faith based grants, (wonder how far ahead they planned that one?).

Illegal campaign practices in Texas which once caught were too late to stop the consequences: Election of Republicans to the Texas State offices who then proceeded to redraw the Texas State districts to give all the Congressional seats to Republicans.

And that's not even mentioning the manipulation of stupid voters by various techniques like fake crisis repeatedly near election times, again unclear how much of this is taking advantage of current events or causing them or just lying about them like claiming you've uncovered another plot.

And that's not even mentioning the manipulation of stupid voters by other techniques like Swift Boat lies techniques and drumming up gay hatred, anti-abortion and other religious fundamentalist issues to get voters out.

And that's not even mentioning the seriously high level of corruption in government currently occurring.

And then, since all you need is 51% of the control of government, the Republican Neocon base has pulled all the other stunts like having Democrats meet in the basement at 3 am or no room could be scheduled for hearings, blocking all testifiers from being sworn in, putting bills up for votes which were written in Republican only committees with no chance for Democrats to even read before voting, changing bills after they were passed, writing 'signing' exceptions on most of the bills passed ......


Edited to add: And I haven't yet mentioned stacking the Supreme Court which is the result of an organized well funded effort began in the 1980s that I posted about before.


IT'S SIMPLY UNBELIEVABLE. Literally. I think that's one reason among many that much of the public has remained asleep.
Edited by - beskeptigal on 07/25/2006 14:15:55
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2006 :  14:18:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
BTW, the vote switching was pretty well documented, not only as possible, as not requiring more than one or two people to do, and probably really did occur in Ohio. Ken Blackwell had much of the Diebold machines literally Online to his office. I'll get some more data on that for you.

Can't find the source for the above info, I'll keep looking but in the meantime,

Also in this thread is the evidence votes could be switched and only need be switched in a few key precincts. That's what the thread is about.

Here's yet another source: Vote Rigging Repeated studies have shown
quote:
that touch-screen machines, which provide voters with no paper record of their ballots, are highly susceptible to tampering. According to a report by the Government Accountability Office, the leading federal watchdog agency, the machines are eminently hackable. It takes only a few minutes to open the machines and insert a PC card containing malicious code that will switch votes from one candidate to another. In a demonstration conducted last year before the Board of Elections in Leon County, Florida, computer security expert Herbert Thompson cracked into an electronic machine in under sixty seconds, altering the internal code and changing the vote count.


And another: Kerry votes switched to Bush and ballots pre-punched for Bush; by Dr. Werner Lange; December 24, 2004



Edited by - beskeptigal on 07/25/2006 14:33:28
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2006 :  14:48:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
If my crazy hypothesis is correct, there would be several implications:

1. Because the conspirators would essentially be the Republican Party, the name of the suit sitting in the White House would be irrelevant. If the Bush name is considered a drag on operations, some other cooperative simpleton, such as maybe Sam Brownback could be "democratically elected" to the Presidency in 2008 via voting fraud. No move by Bush to extend his rule by a declaration of "national emergency" would be required.

2. One would expect to see major fraud in this year's Congressional elections, to continue vital control of the Senate and House. If there is not such fraud in November, I'll declare my entire hypothesis disproved right there. (So my hypothesis is disprovable, thus making it very scientific-ish!)

3. If there does exist a "dictatorship dressed up pretty," the idea would be to continue to rule most Americans with a velvet glove carefully covering the iron fist.

4. An absence of a functioning democracy is, in fact, a seizure of "absolute rule." In the nature of dictatorships, the remaining freedoms of expression would eventually be declared dangerous to the status quo. Greed, intolerance, and fear of being found out would inevitably compel the rulers to discard the velvet glove, and reveal the dictatorship for what it is.

5. If such a "secret dictatorship" exists, when it is clearly revealed, Americans would, in my opinion, rise up against it. I think such a movement to restore the Constitution would ultimately prevail, though it might be a bloody struggle.

I am not at all convinced that such a secret dictatorship exists, though certainly at least parts of it, such as massive electoral fraud and pervasive spying upon citizens, are clearly in place. But I remain seriously worried. It's just hard for me to imagine that the present rulers of this country would let their power slip away from them. They seem simply too authoritarian to surrender power by democratic means. Also, many of them likely would face criminal prosecution if they lost control of the justice apparatus.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/25/2006 15:37:29
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