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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 07/25/2006 : 14:55:14 [Permalink]
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Marfknox wrote: quote:
As for response on my remarks from Half - I can't refute anything you are saying because none of it is really specific enough and you don't define your terms well enough. That was the point of my comments.
Thank you! In Colbertesque form, I will accept this as your apology and agreement with my reasoning. 
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2006 : 15:34:01 [Permalink]
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| Marf is right, HM. All of what you describe is sort of going on but without the total control and secret dictatorship. How would you distinguish those specific pieces from what is obvious on the surface (cheating on elections, control if information, cohesiveness of the Republican Party). |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2006 : 16:21:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Marf is right, HM. All of what you describe is sort of going on but without the total control and secret dictatorship. How would you distinguish those specific pieces from what is obvious on the surface (cheating on elections, control if information, cohesiveness of the Republican Party).
I think the proof will be in the pudding. If the November elections, especially for Senators and Members of the House of Representatives, is rigged, we'll probably find out about it, even given our lousy media coverage. If those elections aren't rigged, it'll be a clear sign that my hypothesis was wrong. I'll be hopping with joy as I retract my stupid idea.
If the November elections are rigged, doing so would require marginally throwing just enough votes in key, close elections, not the manipulation of huge numbers of votes. And that would be consistent with my hypothesis.
(Another signal of the reality of the dictatorship would be the fraying of the velvet glove, and more open suppression of free speech, but that might take many months, or even years to see.)
If elections and control of information are manipulated sufficiently, there certainly must be a point where democracy quite simply no longer exists. How many trees does it require to make a forest? If democracy doesn't exist, but most people are unaware of the lack, then what does exist must be something very close to my "secret dictatorship."
When I first posted my idea, I fully hoped and expected to create a firestorm of denunciation, with masses of disproof being heaped upon it. I had considered the thought for several days, and could not find any solid argument against it. Since it's an idea I would much rather see disproved than proven, I posted it here, where we all love to demolish crank ideas.
Frankly, the fact that my dictatorship hypothesis hasn't yet been surgically given a new anus scares me more than a little.
A good argument could be made that I am posing an extraordinary claim that requires extaordinary evidence. On the other hand, there is, partly due to your own good research, good evidence that the elements of such a secret dictatorship are in place. If elections are fraudulent, media coverage centralized and controlled by increasingly few corporate interests, and all citizens are subject to the most massive electronic spying in the history of the world, an argument could be made that a more "extraordinary" claim would be that we are still living freely in a democracy.
[Minor edits for grammar and intelligbility.]
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/26/2006 19:51:53 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2006 : 18:37:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Frankly, the fact that my dictatorship hypothesis hasn't yet been surgically given a new anus scares me more than a little.
My thoughts exactly! (Well, maybe not that exact metaphor.)
Where are the rest of yooz guys?  |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/26/2006 18:38:52 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2006 : 21:05:00 [Permalink]
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| Election fraud doesn't prove anything else HM, it just proves election fraud. I expect it and the Dems damn well better be prepared for it this time. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2006 : 02:27:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Election fraud doesn't prove anything else HM, it just proves election fraud. I expect it and the Dems damn well better be prepared for it this time.
Well, as I see it, if election fraud completely voids the expressed will of the people, then democracy is dead, and by default, dictatorship is thriving. How could it be otherwise? The question is, does the election fraud of the last six years rise to that level or not?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/27/2006 02:32:42 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2006 : 07:41:53 [Permalink]
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| I doubt that the oligarchs will allow a dictatorship. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 20:46:44 [Permalink]
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| If the election is close it only takes a little fraud, Ricky. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 20:55:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
I doubt that the oligarchs will allow a dictatorship.
But aren't they the same group of people in cahoots? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 22:10:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Well, as I see it, if election fraud completely voids the expressed will of the people, then democracy is dead, and by default, dictatorship is thriving. How could it be otherwise?
Easy: let your speculation run wild, and come to the conclusion that the current formation of the Republican party is itself just a tool by a secret cabal of benign oligarchs, whose goal is to screw up the current system so badly that the entire populace will demand massive reforms, including (but not limited to) a shift of at least 40% of the defense budget to nationwide public education (both K-12 and college), "rank the candidates" voting, much more draconian investigation and punishment of governmental corruption, the elimination of Federal spending on projects of only local interest, a crystal-clear rewrite of the judiciary's role in providing executive and legislative oversight, etc. It'll take some time, but in this view, democracy isn't dead, but only stunned for a few "election" cycles. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 22:51:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
It'll take some time, but in this view, democracy isn't dead, but only stunned for a few "election" cycles.
And they don't come any more stunned than George Dubya. |
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 02:27:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
But aren't they the same group of people in cahoots?
The oligarch remark was only semi-serious, but there is a kind of oligarchy in the U.S. and I don't think they'd like a dictatorship very much. This is not a cohesive, easily identifiable group of people, but rather a tendency that the extremely wealthy and large corporations have an undue influence on what happens. Unless someone were to somehow be able to militarily take over the U.S., which is possible with some kind of emergency executive order, they wouldn't have much of a chance going against what this group wanted. Even with the military, they own the media, they own the means of production, etc. Along with that, and at least the framework of democracy that we have here in the U.S., a dictatorship wouldn't happen easily.
Not saying it's impossible, but if it were done, it would probably be done with the consent of a majority of the people. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 03:24:07 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote:quote:
The oligarch remark was only semi-serious, but there is a kind of oligarchy in the U.S. and I don't think they'd like a dictatorship very much. This is not a cohesive, easily identifiable group of people, but rather a tendency that the extremely wealthy and large corporations have an undue influence on what happens. Unless someone were to somehow be able to militarily take over the U.S., which is possible with some kind of emergency executive order, they wouldn't have much of a chance going against what this group wanted. Even with the military, they own the media, they own the means of production, etc. Along with that, and at least the framework of democracy that we have here in the U.S., a dictatorship wouldn't happen easily.
Not saying it's impossible, but if it were done, it would probably be done with the consent of a majority of the people.
And I agree, an oligarchy made up of one section of the wealthy could not long stand. And that is why, I think, that the "Paleocons" are right now making noisy statements in opposition to the Bush Neocon crowd.
John Dean and William F. Buckley are examples of the resurgent Paleocons. They have, in effect, launched a fight to reclaim the Republican Party. I don't think, if the "secret dictatorship" is real, that it has much inherent stability. Too many old-time, Goldwater conservatives oppose deficit spending, the erosion of States Rights (as in the anti-gay amendment attempt), international adventurism, and the extreme loss of individual privacy, all of which are hallmarks of the Bush bunch. But for the moment, the Republican Party, and the nation itself to some debatable degree, is under the heel of the Bush-Rove-Cheney-Rumsfeld junta. The fight for the control of that party is likely to be going to be very bitter during the next elections, losing the Republicans many offices in the process, assuming elections are not rigged.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/29/2006 03:28:25 |
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woolytoad
Skeptic Friend
313 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2006 : 01:38:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
What are you talking about? Yes, a small number of people write the codes for the machines - so they'd all have to be in on it together. Of course the machines are distributed all over the country, operated, and checked by lots of other people - so they'd all have to be in on it. Not to mention that the programming would have to be sophisticated enough to target specific areas so it wouldn't be obviously skewed. For instance, if a highly Demoncratic area goes 70% for a Republican, it would be obviously rigged to any reasonable person. And then from what Half is suggesting, this is coming from on high, so all the leaders up the ladder know about. How do you get that a nationwide fixing of the Presidential election would be handled by one person?
The complicated code would probably make it easier to manipulate, not harder. Bigger the system, the fewer the people who are able to understand it all at a low level. All you need is one guy who maintains some section of code and skewing the results is probably trivial.
<Tin foil hat off> :P |
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