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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
 Posted - 09/08/2006 : 09:23:47 [Permalink]
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You know, perhaps the reason Irwin wasn't killed by a more dangerous animal was because even while being reckless around them, he did know what they could do to him. We may not have seen his caution but I bet it was there, even if he was pushing the outside of the envelope.
Based on what is known about stingrays he had little reason to take whatever precautions he might have taken with a “dangerous” animal. Bottom line is his death is nothing if not ironic.
I'm a person who understands that kind of thinking as someone who works with dangerous tools every day. My most serious job related injuries did not occur using my most dangerous tools. I'm very careful when using a table saw even when I make a risky cut that could result in a very painful kickback or worse. On the other hand I have nailed my fingers together with a simple brad nailer, even though it has a safety on it so I shouldn't have been able to do that. My attention on safety is just not engaged when I am using that tool. (Well, now it is. Unfortunately for Erwin, he doesn't get to reconsider the possible danger of swimming with stingrays...) Anyhow, you get my point.
Ironic yes. Inevitable? Hard to say…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2006 : 10:17:21 [Permalink]
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Ok to clarify my position...
1) I think Steve Irwin was a great man.
2) I think this was a freak accident, involving a defensive animal which got spooked.
3) Steve Irwin put himself into positions where freak accidents involving animals could happen.
4) Steve Irwin was more likely to die in his shower then by a stingray he wasnt trying to disturb, statisticly speaking.
5) Before last week nearly everyone who had any clue about the subject would have classified Steve Irwin as "Person in the world most likely to be killed by a wild animal"
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2006 : 10:20:49 [Permalink]
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I would say that it was inevitable that he would get seriously whacked by something, but a stingray...? Ye gods!
These are very inoccous animals, even the largest of them. Almost all injuries, mine included, are the result of step-ons -- ie: not paying attention. When disturbed, they will flee, every time. According to the latest that I have read, this one found itself in an exception situation. And that is what would have, sooner or later, given Iwirn a serious snake bite: an exception; either with the snake or his own methods.
But I'd never have thought it would have been fatal. He was just too well prepared for it.
Irwin had no reason to fear the ray. Nobody considers them dangerous, and they are not. The very worst they can do is leave you with a nasty, ragged puncture wound, possibly with the spine remaining in it, and a vivid memory of extraordinary and excruciating pain that will lurk in the back of your mind and come forth any time you get tempted to wade in the shallows.
It is the beauty of an odd but rather common sort of parallel evolution.... The ray usually escapes unscathed and it's opposit learns a valuable lesson.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2006 : 11:54:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
I think that Dude's comments about what Irwin did in his profession are valid. He really was the only member of an idiosyncratic set. He was not even "typical" (if there is such a thing) among wild animal wranglers. Stats on other activities only show how dangerous they are, not how they compare to the activity of "being Steve Irwin." On the other hand, one Steve Irwin dying, by the paucity of data, does not constitute valid statistics for the danger of "Irwining." ...
And here again, what I said is not what two of you have heard, (unless of course you are saying this just to paraphrase what I said, then it's only one person). Though I'm pleased to say, the others seem to have.
What I said, (again):
Irwin's antics are prone to being PERCEIVED as being more dangerous than they actually are.
There is anecdotal evidence plus seeing the people surrounding Irwin on the wider screen shots that he purposefully exaggerates the PERCEIVED risk for the audience's benefit
Common occupational activities are typically PERCEIVED as being less dangerous than they actually are.
The data shows driving is one of, if not the most, dangerous occupational activity.
There is no data to compare Irwin's risks directly because the sample size is not big enough.
When judging how dangerous an occupational activity is, you have to consider how much time is spent actually doing the dangerous activity along with the danger.
Considering the above, with my expertise in occupational health, I conclude driving for 8 hours a day is riskier than holding a snake recklessly and other Irwin antics for the small amount of time during a workday Irwin performs those activities.
Dude is welcome to his opinion. I do wish he would at least acknowledge the 'factors' one should look at to determine what is or isn't 'putting yourself at risk'. He seems to believe his gut reaction is infallible.
But besides all that, the original point I was making, was that Irwin's risk taking was being unfairly condemned considering the risks many other people routinely take on their jobs. Why not chastise taxi drivers, driving normally, for risk taking should they die on the job?
And Dude, I still want to know if you have a working smoke alarm in your house. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2006 : 12:20:59 [Permalink]
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| http://youtube.com/watch?v=Fzi_r0Ry_bU |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2006 : 14:32:12 [Permalink]
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And already, the Steve Irwin jokes begin:
Steve Irwin should have been wearing a UV blocker lotion. If he had, he'd be alive today. Why? Because a good sunblock stops 100% of harmful rays.
I object to the above! It's too damned soon.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2006 : 21:44:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
And Dude, I still want to know if you have a working smoke alarm in your house.
Yep. Tied into AC power with battery backup.
But spare me more of the nonsensical statistics tirade.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2006 : 22:15:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
And already, the Steve Irwin jokes begin:
Steve Irwin should have been wearing a UV blocker lotion. If he had, he'd be alive today. Why? Because a good sunblock stops 100% of harmful rays.
Good sunglasses would have done the same. Yup, a nice pair of Ray-Bans would have worked wonders. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2006 : 05:57:57 [Permalink]
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I dislike artifical fibers anyway, but now I know for sure that I'll never wear a rayon bathing suit.
Oh your god, could we get in any worse taste?! 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2006 : 08:00:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Oh your god, could we get in any worse taste?!
I think our restraint is skating away. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2006 : 08:07:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
I dislike artifical fibers anyway, but now I know for sure that I'll never wear a rayon bathing suit.
Oh your god, could we get in any worse taste?!
It takes a real manta admit when he's wrong. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2006 : 09:46:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by R.Wreck
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by filthy
I dislike artifical fibers anyway, but now I know for sure that I'll never wear a rayon bathing suit.
Oh your god, could we get in any worse taste?!
quote:
It takes a real manta admit when he's wrong.
Hmm. I guess we can indeed become more tasteless.
But unfortunatly, that's all too true. Most would just skate away from making the acdmission.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2006 : 21:16:12 [Permalink]
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| For some reason, I think the jokes would meet with his approval. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2006 : 03:02:20 [Permalink]
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My Queensland Aussie friend (the one who'd first told me via TeamSpeak of the report on her local radio of his death) is a vociferous defender of Steve Irwin. But she told me the Steve Irwin joke I posted above. She says such jokes are the Aussie way. She thought that Irwin, as a "fair-dinkum Aussie," would have laughed himself. So I think of these jokes as "laughing with, not laughing at."
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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