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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
 Posted - 12/14/2006 : 09:37:35 [Permalink]
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Jeez what a bunch of ba-humbugers. I think christmas is great. Lots of parties, excuses to visit relatives and the anticipation of getting some fun gifts. We put up a christmas tree and decorate the house with lights; all that crap - it's fun. So what if it is based on a myth of pagan or christian ideas - it's just a freaking winter festival.
As far as Satan I mean Santa I told my kids he was real and we even left milk and cookies out for him. When the horrible truth was revealed to them, they were able to piece there shattered lives back together. As we all know childeren never lie nor are they capable of experiencing a lie (or in this case fun fairy tale) with out severe psychological damage.
If you told your kid that there was a Santa and now it is time to stop believing but you don't want them to know that you LIED to them then just show em this:
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 09:48:30 [Permalink]
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If you want to do all that, please do. But it is lying to tell them that Santa is coming down your chimney (if he, in fact does not), and it is telling children that reality is not a good idea. Why lie to them? Why is reality not enough?
Again, I'm saying that as someone who did it with my kids, who turned out mostly healthy. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 12/14/2006 09:49:52 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2006 : 11:41:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I think some of us are talking about different things. If you like Christmas and read your kid stories about Christmas and take him to see Santa at the mall, that's different than telling him that Santa is going to come through your fireplace and leave him a bike.
Fun is possible without lying. ...
How is the mall Santa fantasy different from the chimney Santa?
We aren't talking about different things, we view the subject from different sides.
Dude echoes my view in that the child's brain differs from the adult's. One's adult concept of lies and myths just doesn't translate the same in a child's mind.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2006 : 12:13:16 [Permalink]
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As with all problems, there is a neat and tidy solution to this one. And as with all problems, the direct application of that solution will solve the problem once and for all, as was done in the given, excellent example.
I mean why all this shilley-shalleying around? Why all of this useless verbage flying in the wind like a flock of parakeets -- the most useless bird in existence? If you don't want the kids believing in Santa, get out there and do something about it! He's easy to find. He's mostly some local alcoholic hanging out in stores trying to earn a few bucks so he won't have to go dumpster-diving for his supper for a while. Due to his dissolute life style, he'll be easy to take out. So drag the fat bastard into the parking lot and BUST HIS ASS! Then ridicule him unmercifully. This'll show the kids what a pittiful, fallen idol Santa is and they'll never believe in him again.
There. Problem solved.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2006 : 12:28:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Fun is possible without lying. ...
How is the mall Santa fantasy different from the chimney Santa?
We aren't talking about different things, we view the subject from different sides.
Dude echoes my view in that the child's brain differs from the adult's. One's adult concept of lies and myths just doesn't translate the same in a child's mind.[/quote]
The difference is that one is a guy in a suit that you take a picture with. The other is a lie you tell. The difference is with you, not necessarily the kid. If you lie to them about what the guy in the mall is, then there's no difference. It's a belief that you have, that, by example, you teach your children. Reality isn't a good thing, so let's create our own reality? Kids are things that you can manipulate for your own pleasure? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2006 : 21:08:13 [Permalink]
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| Gorgo, the kids go to the guy in the suit and tell him what to bring them for Christmas as if he's really going to come. Are you talking about telling the kids to go sit in the lap of the fake Santa? |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2006 : 21:26:45 [Permalink]
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As general advice, I totally agree with Dude: quote:
As long as you let them in on the truth when they begin to suspect it on their own, you are not causing them any harm.
He also mentioned the age of 8, which is generally the age where kids begin to think rationally and start asking lots of questions.
Personally, I'm never doing the Santa crap with my kids. For one, it's a Christmas thing and I don't celebrate Christmas. For another, even though there isn't any evidence that kids believing in Santa is harmful, I don't feel good lying to kids about anything. And three, when I was 8 I point blank asked my mom if Santa was real and she said yes. And me, a highly gullible kid, went on believing until I was 11 and ended up making all sorts of silly explanations in my head for how Santa fit in with the whole Jesus thing and so on. It ended with me feeling like a real idiot and being made fun of by friends.
Last year I went searching for evidence that telling kids about Santa could be harmful because I wanted to believe that due to my own personal experience. And all I could find was one study (I can't find it right now - sorry) that said that it was only harmful in kids who believed past the age of 8, and they suffered because of other kids making fun of them.
So go ahead, tell your kid Santa exists and gives toys to kids. But if they ASK you for the truth, tell them. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2006 : 21:37:50 [Permalink]
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Forgot one more reason why not to tell your kids about Santa: if they grow up in an economically and culturally mixed environment, they might see other kids not getting toys or getting less or cheaper toys, and associate poverty/minority religions with "being naughty".
OK... I have no idea if this actually makes happens in practice. After all, most Santa-nostalgic bozos (who call us non-participants "Scrooges" and "Grinches") live in culturally and economically homogenous suburbs and don't have to worry about silly old diversity interfering with their kids' self-absorbed fantasies.
Shit, I really shouldn't drink scotch before responding on this forum. My gremlins are getting loose. Oh well, might as well give into the urge: Fuck Christmas. Fuck Hannukah. Who the fuck celebrates Kwanzaa? And fuck all the other piddley little holidays people make up or pump up so they aren't left out of the materialistic mania. All of America can shove their presents, lights, and shitty carols up their asses.
As you can see, this is a family friendly forum. :-) |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 12/15/2006 21:39:43 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2006 : 23:00:17 [Permalink]
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My my Martha, this is a side of you I haven't seen.
There is one thing I refuse to participate in around Christmas. I don't go to crowded stores. That ruins the whole holiday. I buy great things at the thrift store all year long. Other people get the new stuff. And since Mike's been older I do get him some latest electronic thing he usually asks for. But we get that on line and it isn't any surprise.
Because of the thrift stores, this house is totally full of stuff so Christmas isn't when we buy a lot more.
Kids notice other kids toys about the age of 4 or 5 if I recall. Before that they aren't usually asking other kids, "what did you get?" |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2006 : 03:46:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Gorgo, the kids go to the guy in the suit and tell him what to bring them for Christmas as if he's really going to come. Are you talking about telling the kids to go sit in the lap of the fake Santa?
I guess if you think they think that, then it would be lying not to tell them he's fake, wouldn't it? Whether they understand or not. If they still don't understand, then you haven't lied, you've just failed to make contact. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 12/16/2006 03:47:55 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2006 : 03:50:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Because of the thrift stores, this house is totally full of stuff so Christmas isn't when we buy a lot more.
Kids notice other kids toys about the age of 4 or 5 if I recall. Before that they aren't usually asking other kids, "what did you get?"
If you like Christmas, there are sensible ways to celebrate it. I just can't take the capitalism or the Christ out of xmas. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2006 : 11:27:56 [Permalink]
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beskeptical wrote: quote:
My my Martha, this is a side of you I haven't seen.
Well you can imagine how if I showed this side too often it might be considered a little... antisocial perhaps? But it very much is and always has been a side to me. Did you not see my "Shitty and Less Shitty Things About the Holiday Season" posting from last year? http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5344&SearchTerms=shitty
Gorgo wrote: quote:
I just can't take the capitalism or the Christ out of xmas.
Same here. Although I do think you are going a little overboard on the whole lying about Santa or how it might affect other non-Christians who do celebrate the holiday. When I have kids we'll give them presents, but not a lot. And we'll definitely emphasize charity (through action, not just talk!) and seeing family over exchanging gifts. We'll probably also break down and put up a fake tree and few lights, but not so much as to insanely drive up our electric bill or risk a fire. And we'll do it on Winter Solstice or HumanLight, not the 25th.
So now that the gremlins are out of my system, I can express the other side of my feelings on the holiday season. Winter Solstice has tended to be a time of lights and celebration in many cultures all over the world. In Thailand they do Loi Krathong in November (Festival of Lights). European pagans had things. Christ's birthday was meant to replace Mithra's, and many other Pagan traditions involving lights and celebration this time of year began long before the New Testament was written. In a good portion of the world (including where I am) it is colder and darker this time of year. That is a naturalistic phenomenon, and a damn good reason to throw parties with friends and family, express how much we care about each other, give extra to charities, sing some songs and put up some pretty lights. It really doesn't have to be about religion. Rather, it can universally be about warmpth, light, and unity, with religious groups adding their own unique meanings, rituals, and interpretations to those sentiments.
There's yer warm fuzzies. I feel dirty; think I'll go take a shower now. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2006 : 16:26:20 [Permalink]
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If I made a big deal out of it and said that it was terrible, I'd agree that I was going overboard. I understand that good people do it, but all I'm talking about is honesty, integrity and respect. I don't think that's all that crazy.
If kids don't understand what you're talking about, why lie? If they do, then it's still a lie. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Denwash
New Member
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 12:45:14 [Permalink]
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| Wow! Quite the response, I am grateful for the replies people! In reading the posts, I am pretty convinced that there has been adequate research done which verifies that believing in Santa does not harm children. (Although, it would be interesting to see the effects of the introduction of Santa into a culture that does not have him....) I happen to LIKE the christmas season - not the religious aspects, but certainly any excuse to get together and show appreciation for the people who are important to you is a good thing. (And Dec 25th is certainly a convenient time). One thing I would like to point out is that I do see a difference in telling a child about Santa vs. "scaring the monsters away". The first of those lies is active, and performed with malice aforethought (if you will excuse the term) - the second is reactive, and the intent is to alleviate pain. Certainly both lies, but almost diametrically opposed in degree. Thanks again! |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 14:41:08 [Permalink]
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My family, even as it grows slowly more atheistic over the generations, will probably continue to celebrate "Christmas" on the 25th, out of comfortable tradition. As Denwash said, the 25th is as good a time as any other.
I think these winter solstice celebrations go back probably many thousands of years to cultures in temperate climes which needed some cheering up at a time when days were short, food was not as plentiful, and cold itself was a serious threat to survival. Gathering together around a fire to mutually boost morale, and to perform old rituals had to be important in whole ages when the winter night, filled with howling wolves and the gods knew what else, was always threatening to engulf humanity. Santa's as good a focus for our present-day rituals as any other, and better than some.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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