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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  12:21:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

quote:
Originally posted by Robb

quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

quote:
Originally posted by Ricky

Macro evolution is not just a combination of many micro evolutionary events.


This is a key one.

Thanks for all the input by everyone. I try to dispel unthruths about evolution at our church if I can. I feel that Christians should be about the truth, and many will believe Christian authors about what evolution is and discount the actual scientists working in the field. We need to be better than this.

The above one kind of throws me though. I guess this is how I imagine how evolution happens. This is why I started this thread, to discover myths I may have about evolution.



I think you misread it. Ricky was saying that evolution does work on a series of steps (micro evolution) and it is a myth to think otherwise.



Actually I do believe you are the one who misread, Macro Evolution happens people, if you are going to argue the topic, do bother to learn it. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/macroevolution.html

P.S. This is why I dont argue sentence structure and grammer.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  12:47:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
BigPapaSmurf, no one is saying that macro evolution doesn't happen. But the myth is that macro evolution is not just a direct result of micro evolution over time. That is to say, evolution works by small changes spreading throughout a species, and if that species become isolated from others of its kind, these changes build up until the two groups are different species.

On the other hand, many if not all Creationists agree with micro evolution but not macro.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  12:51:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Nevermind, clearly its a lost cause since even its avocates cant reach the same page, I say we just give in the the YECs and enslave everybody else! Whos with me!

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  13:19:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Nevermind, clearly its a lost cause since even its avocates cant reach the same page, I say we just give in the the YECs and enslave everybody else! Whos with me!



I think it has more to do with grammar and sentence structure.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  13:22:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Nevermind, clearly its a lost cause since even its avocates cant reach the same page, I say we just give in the the YECs and enslave everybody else! Whos with me!

I am! I'm in! We can corrupt the system from within like screw worms in a hog's scrotum!

Oh.... wait a minute....




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  13:28:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
Talkorigins goes through each myth one by one.

I think the biggest myth and is rarely dealt with because it's more philosophy than science is the myth we are lesser beings if we evolved from common ancestors within the animal kingdom.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  13:36:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
To assume that we are 'lesser beings if we evolved from common ancestors within the animal kingdom' would you not need the myth that we are greater beings in the first place?


"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  11:24:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

To assume that we are 'lesser beings if we evolved from common ancestors within the animal kingdom' would you not need the myth that we are greater beings in the first place?





That's what I would say. We are not so great considering..

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  11:56:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

To assume that we are 'lesser beings if we evolved from common ancestors within the animal kingdom' would you not need the myth that we are greater beings in the first place?





That's what I would say. We are not so great considering..

Does this mean that you consider yourself to be no better than an ant?

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  12:12:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Does this mean that you consider yourself to be no better than an ant?


In a way, but clarity is needed. IG once said that "a dog could kick my ass at ass kicking." The way I see it is that animals (including humans) have their strengths and weaknesses within contexts. Humans can't claw, fly, swim well(underwater very deep), and have not natural weapons. The thing we do have is intelligence to get around those problems. We are defiinitely the smartest animals but, we also suck. We fight wars and buld weapons that could kill the whole planet. We pollute and created global warming. In other words our intelligence has short comings.

What is really needed to have this discussion is context. What would be the point of the challenge. Dogs win at ass kicking, insects win at variety of species, cheetahs win at speed contests; it varies. If it is an all inclusive contest, then we need to descern a point to life. In my view there is no such point. Even when I was a christian, I could see no such point. Life is what you make of it, and some actions of humans are more than capable of destroying it.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  14:56:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

quote:
Does this mean that you consider yourself to be no better than an ant?


In a way, but clarity is needed. IG once said that "a dog could kick my ass at ass kicking." The way I see it is that animals (including humans) have their strengths and weaknesses within contexts. Humans can't claw, fly, swim well(underwater very deep), and have not natural weapons. The thing we do have is intelligence to get around those problems. We are defiinitely the smartest animals but, we also suck. We fight wars and buld weapons that could kill the whole planet. We pollute and created global warming. In other words our intelligence has short comings.
I can define those shortcomings that you list as strengths. Why can't I think that global warming is good or pollution is good? You are relating our strengths and weaknesses as a species to your standard and when you do we "suck". I claim we rock.

quote:
What is really needed to have this discussion is context. What would be the point of the challenge. Dogs win at ass kicking, insects win at variety of species, cheetahs win at speed contests; it varies. If it is an all inclusive contest, then we need to descern a point to life. In my view there is no such point. Even when I was a christian, I could see no such point. Life is what you make of it, and some actions of humans are more than capable of destroying it.

If there is no point to life, what does it matter if we destroy the earth? Why does anything matter?

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  15:09:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
If there is no point to life, what does it matter if we destroy the earth? Why does anything matter?

Because being alive is more fun than being dead.

Seriously, I've never understood this christian "logic." If life has no ultimate purpose, no ultimate meaning, do christians really think most people would choose to never exist at all? And if I'm grateful for the chance to exist for a short while, why wouldn't I want to extend that same chance to future generations?

Just because we get only one life doesn't mean that most people choose to spend it being selfish assholes.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  15:16:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
I can define those shortcomings that you list as strengths. Why can't I think that global warming is good or pollution is good? You are relating our strengths and weaknesses as a species to your standard and when you do we "suck". I claim we rock.


Duh! You asked about my opinion, did you expect something that was not my opinion? You may claim we rock if you want, I have no problem with that. I call actions that can kill me and my family and perhaps everyone else on the planet suck-face actions, but that is just me.
quote:
If there is no point to life, what does it matter if we destroy the earth? Why does anything matter?

Because I do not want the Earth destroyed.

Are you saying that if your god wasn't real you would just go on a killing spree and destroy the Earth?

Edited: BTW by claiming that life has no great point to it, is the same as claiming that nothing in life matters on a greater scheme than my happiness in enjoying my life.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
Edited by - Neurosis on 02/13/2007 15:19:39
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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  15:19:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message
quote:
Does this mean that you consider yourself to be no better than an ant?

In truth I think this is accurate, however I assume that evolution has 'hardwired' a sort of prejudice in all of us for our own species.


If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  15:21:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by furshur

quote:
Does this mean that you consider yourself to be no better than an ant?

In truth I think this is accurate, however I assume that evolution has 'hardwired' a sort of prejudice in all of us for our own species.





No need to think we have proof. Mirror neurons and beauty concepts in our brains are pretty clearly telling us that we percieve ourselves and even exaggerated versions of ourselves preferable to other things.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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