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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
 Posted - 07/11/2008 : 19:22:08 [Permalink]
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And Mona Lisa is just a piece of wood with some paint on it. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2008 : 03:19:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by filthy
As for the threats, it has been my experience that those who make the most noise are candyasses and the least likely to carry them out. |
Whether they're likely to be carried out is largely irrelevant.
The expressions of Christian love and forgiveness contained in those messages are simply remarkable!
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Yeh, there's that too, although I'd think a carried-out threat would be quite relevant. On the other hand, it is said that there are a billion Catholics, a number I find suspect but don't care enough to verify, in this world and I suspect that many are as appalled as we. Or maybe not....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 07/12/2008 03:27:46 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2008 : 04:29:25 [Permalink]
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I recall the strident howls of anguish when Piss Christ was put on display. At the time, I thought, "Boy, those are some really strident howls, those are!" and went on with life a bit bemused (& amused) by all of the futile, and, I suspect, largely false anguish.
The comparison here is that The Pisser lives on and the Fracker is already dead (what became of that thing, anyway? I've forgotten). Only the howls remain, and they too, will soon enough die away as well. Unless, that is, the Catholic League, or PZ, chooses to continue it, for whatever arcain purpose. But even the most strident of howlers run out of wind when they get bored, and this one is gradually approaching the cusp of ennui. It'll all blow over soon enough, I think. Hell, I'm getting bored with it already, as it's close to exceeding my threshold of nonsense tolorance. But it was fun for a while.
Heh, speaking of pissers:
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 07/12/2008 : 13:57:47 [Permalink]
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It seems to be winding down a bit. As might be expected, a myriad sockpuppets have been outed, and the Washington Moonie Review has commented, rather blandly, I thought. It's starting to look like the tempest will soon be back in it's teapot. By their actions you will know them. We have had a number of raving angry Catholics in various threads here…or have we? I've had a moment to clean up a few threads and post some of the stuff that was held in comment moderation, and discovered that Naz, k8, promo, baker, PZ is a fool, Burns, rumrunner, Dobbs, NYTs, KKKAthiest, Andy, CDV, BradJ, Brett, b7, PCD, NVFU, Your daddy, facebock, baker and several other loud-mouthed asses who have been braying here are all one and the same person.
This is called sock puppetry. It is trying to generate the illusion of a consensus on one side of an issue by pretending to be a multitude. It is cowardly, contemptible, and stupid — not just because a blog owner can look at the stats and detect it, but because it suddenly diminishes your point of view. It makes you look so weak that you have to lie to put up a pretense of popular support, and it makes your side, in this case the fundamentalist Catholics, look like a troop of posturing frauds.
Thanks!
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It's still fun, in a slanted sort of way, but becoming repetitious and in some cases, even shrill.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2008 : 14:25:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hawks
And Mona Lisa is just a piece of wood with some paint on it.
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I understand your point that things have meanings beyond the sum of their parts, but that really isn't an apt comparison. The Mona Lisa is one of a kind work of art. It's unique in the world. That alone makes it special.
The host is a piece of bread. And no matter what some cult pretends, it remains so. My "respect" doesn't extend as far as granting them their own reality.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2008 : 14:50:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
The host is a piece of bread. And no matter what some cult pretends, it remains so. My "respect" doesn't extend as far as granting them their own reality. |
Of course, you couldn't even if you wanted to. If you could grant them a reality, you'd be a god. But you could, if you willed it or became crazed enough, join their mass delusion.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2008 : 17:45:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
I understand your point that things have meanings beyond the sum of their parts, but that really isn't an apt comparison. The Mona Lisa is one of a kind work of art. It's unique in the world. That alone makes it special. |
On the other hand, even if someone were to "desecrate" the Mona Lisa, it wouldn't be just cause for death threats.
A lot of the folks who are upset about possible Host defilement are trying to defend their irrationality by saying things along the lines of, "how would you feel if someone pissed on The Origin of Species or the Constitution?" Yes, it's silly. Nobody should revere a science book or the Constitution (or a unique painting) as a deity. These folks expect outrage at such a suggestion because they've made a mission out of mistaking symbols for the things they symbolize, and so they can't imagine people acting with real tolerance.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2008 : 04:07:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by H. Humbert
I understand your point that things have meanings beyond the sum of their parts, but that really isn't an apt comparison. The Mona Lisa is one of a kind work of art. It's unique in the world. That alone makes it special. |
On the other hand, even if someone were to "desecrate" the Mona Lisa, it wouldn't be just cause for death threats.
A lot of the folks who are upset about possible Host defilement are trying to defend their irrationality by saying things along the lines of, "how would you feel if someone pissed on The Origin of Species or the Constitution?" Yes, it's silly. Nobody should revere a science book or the Constitution (or a unique painting) as a deity. These folks expect outrage at such a suggestion because they've made a mission out of mistaking symbols for the things they symbolize, and so they can't imagine people acting with real tolerance.
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Coincidently enough, one of the more outraged, Catholic posters in one of PZ's threads put forth exactly that: (paraphrase) "How would you like it if somebody desecrated a copy of Darwin's Origin of Species?"
I don't recall the answers back, if there were any, but I thought that a really stupid question to ask an atheist. Hell, desecrate away and if you piss all over it, I'll only hope the urine didn't burn you coming out. But I didn't say that nor even much wish that I had.
'Most everyone can bake lots of unlevened crackers and, I suppose, 'most any priest can transubmasticate them into Frackers, but it takes a Leonardo to produce a Mona Lisa, and there never was nor will be but one of either of those. And neither of them are sacred, either.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2008 : 06:16:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Hawks
And Mona Lisa is just a piece of wood with some paint on it.
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I understand your point that things have meanings beyond the sum of their parts, but that really isn't an apt comparison. The Mona Lisa is one of a kind work of art. It's unique in the world. That alone makes it special.
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Sure, there are differences, but there are also similarities. Both are assigned value for the reason that people believe that they have value. There isn't anything inherently valuable in that painting. Perhaps even less so than in those crackers which do, after all, have some calorific content (I assume).
And Mona Lisa isn't really that unique, either. There are Mona Lisa reproductions and it would take an expert to tell them apart. You can even buy some online. You can by posters of the painting cheaply. You can even see high quality versions online for free. All show the "enigmatic smile".
The host is a piece of bread. And no matter what some cult pretends, it remains so. |
My father's grave stone is just a rock as well. I'd be pretty pissed off if someone sprayed graffitti on it. I'd be pretty angry if someone graffittied on most other of similar rocks as well. Even though they are just rocks.
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METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2008 : 06:58:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hawks
My father's grave stone is just a rock as well. I'd be pretty pissed off if someone sprayed graffitti on it. I'd be pretty angry if someone graffittied on most other of similar rocks as well. Even though they are just rocks. |
Would death be an appropriate punishment for the perpetrator(s)? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2008 : 08:04:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Hawks
My father's grave stone is just a rock as well. I'd be pretty pissed off if someone sprayed graffitti on it. I'd be pretty angry if someone graffittied on most other of similar rocks as well. Even though they are just rocks. |
Would death be an appropriate punishment for the perpetrator(s)?
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That is irrelevant to the question of whether or not some inaminate object is simply ... an inaminate object. I'd say that there is a difference between taking a cracker from communion versus taking one from a packet in your local supermarket. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2008 : 10:56:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hawks
That is irrelevant to the question of whether or not some inaminate object is simply ... an inaminate object. I'd say that there is a difference between taking a cracker from communion versus taking one from a packet in your local supermarket. |
The difference is indeed in what value is placed upon the inanimate object, and what punishment one gets for the theft is also directly related to that value. This is why shoplifting a cracker would result in less of a punishment than stealing a car. The question then becomes only about what value is placed upon a blessed wafer, and whether that value can justify the threat of death (a criminal act itself) to attempt to ensure the safety of the wafer.
I'm pretty sure that we can all agree that car theft or defacement of tombstones is offensive, but I think we can all agree that they don't rise to a level of offense where terrorism is an appropriate response.
We (everyone in society) doesn't seem to agree that theft of a consecrated wafer does not merit death threats. The majority of us who don't share Catholic beliefs are likely to see it as little more than a 0.2-cent wafer. Catholics, hypocritically, see it as a part of their all-powerful God that's utterly defenseless. The particular people who saw what Webster Cook was doing at Mass felt strongly enough about the wafer that physical assault was a reasonable method of attempting to secure the wafer. How Cook managed to leave Mass without getting a fist to his face is anyone's guess at this point.
But that strays from the point.
Say that I had a card sent to me by my Grandma on my 12th birthday which is dear to me. Would it be fair, after a house fire, to demand that my insurance company pay $1,000,000 just for the card, because of the memories it held? Is it ever fair for a minority to try to impose their values on objects on others, especially when those others cannot possibly get the same value? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2008 : 11:49:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
There's more over at The Jewish Journal, where I've left a comment.
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Dave, your comments are spot on... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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A Christian (Catholic) sense of proportion...
