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 Codex Sinaiticus (the oldest Bible) is now online
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend

USA
354 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2009 :  22:15:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Zebra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Simon

Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by lorddix

It appears that there are english translations of some parts, but other sections do not have any translations as of yet. The resurrection stories are in there in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John with the contradictions that are currently known to exist, but having neither the time nor inclination to compare them to a current bible as published there are probably individual passages that are not in the codex, but are in the bible as published now. The CNN blurb doesn't note the lack of resurrection stories, but says that some passages are missing which implies that a later editor/writer fleshed out the resurrection stories and added passages.
Actually, the CNN piece says,
And some familiar -- very important -- passages are missing, including verses dealing with the resurrection of Jesus, they said.
That is rather vague.

But translations of the Gospels are in there. I must have been impatient with the site (it's taking a long time to load). Here is Luke 24:1-12 in NIV:[bq][i]1 On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. (...)




You are looking at Luke, which was written relatively late (after the temple's destruction).

More interesting might be to look at Mark's ending (Mark 16:8 and up) as the earliest known version appear to be truncated with the resurrection story we have in the modern version to be a later addition.


Edited: 'cause I can't type.
Got to this discussion late, but the good news is, no trouble accessing the site!

Here's the English translation of the end of Mark in the Codex Sinaiticus - 16:1 is the last verse.
16:1 And when the sabbath had passed, Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint him [in the tomb - dead].
(Of course, I added the part in brackets.)

Maybe God was saving the best part of the story for later?



I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney

*some restrictions may apply
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend

USA
354 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2009 :  22:27:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Zebra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
John 21 ends 1 line earlier in the codex sinaiticus than in the modern version. That's the end of my explorations - it's very neat to have it "gathered" electronically in 1 place, & readily accessible to anyone w/ access to the internet, but who really wants to read through the codex even where there are English translations. (rhetorical question)

But this whole discussion does remind me of this clip, Mr Deity and the Scripts, discovered (well, released) recently (h/t PZ).

Enjoy.


I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney

*some restrictions may apply
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2009 :  08:04:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Zebra

Originally posted by Simon

Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by lorddix

It appears that there are english translations of some parts, but other sections do not have any translations as of yet. The resurrection stories are in there in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John with the contradictions that are currently known to exist, but having neither the time nor inclination to compare them to a current bible as published there are probably individual passages that are not in the codex, but are in the bible as published now. The CNN blurb doesn't note the lack of resurrection stories, but says that some passages are missing which implies that a later editor/writer fleshed out the resurrection stories and added passages.
Actually, the CNN piece says,
And some familiar -- very important -- passages are missing, including verses dealing with the resurrection of Jesus, they said.
That is rather vague.
But translations of the Gospels are in there. I must have been impatient with the site (it's taking a long time to load). Here is Luke 24:1-12 in NIV:[bq][i]1 On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. (...)

You are looking at Luke, which was written relatively late (after the temple's destruction).
More interesting might be to look at Mark's ending (Mark 16:8 and up) as the earliest known version appear to be truncated with the resurrection story we have in the modern version to be a later addition.
Edited: 'cause I can't type.
Got to this discussion late, but the good news is, no trouble accessing the site!
Here's the English translation of the end of Mark in the Codex Sinaiticus - 16:1 is the last verse.
16:1 And when the sabbath had passed, Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint him [in the tomb - dead].
(Of course, I added the part in brackets.)
Maybe God was saving the best part of the story for later?


Or the early Christian quickly decided a happy ending was required and made-up the resurrection part.
Obviously, God could not stay dead so, obviously, he had to resurrect.

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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Chippewa
SFN Regular

USA
1496 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2009 :  10:46:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Chippewa's Homepage Send Chippewa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

[quote]
...Mithras was one of several Classical gods and demigods who were resurrected. Mithras' cult was very wide-spread and very popular in the late Roman era...Yet Mithraism disappeared almost without an historical trace, aside from many an abandoned "mithreaum" throughout the Empire...My idea is to suggest that a deal was proposed by Theodosius to the Mithraist heirarchy: "Join the Christian church, and we will make Jesus more like Mithras. You can still worship Mithras, but you must call him Jesus. Agree, or we will wipe you out."
I think they took the deal....And Christianity got a resurrected Jesus out of the compromise.


I agree about the importance of Mithraism in history. I think also that one of the strongest roots of Resurrection cults leading up to this and long predating the worship of Mithras, aspects of which both Christianity and Mithraism likely inherited, was the Greek cult of Dionysius.

Your speculation also illustrates how political religion is. (I've long suspected that by this day and age, religion is not a mix of religious beliefs with more or less politics sprinkled in - religion is 100% politics.)

Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.

"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.)
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2009 :  22:54:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What you're saying, Chip, makes a lot of sense.

Mithraism was a very strange reworking of Zoroastrianism into a "mystery cult" in the Greco-Roman style. It was probably created around the First Century as, probably, a deliberately syncretic cult, from the Persian religion of the time and the Greek cult of Dionysus.

Part of that was the resurrection of Mithras, stolen from that of Dionysus. Then, probably, Jesus got the resurrection thing going, too. People were assembling religions from standard parts like Lego toys.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend

USA
354 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2009 :  09:04:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Zebra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
(sometimes literally!)


I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney

*some restrictions may apply
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2009 :  13:37:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Zebra

(sometimes literally!)


Oh, yeah! I read that a lot. The Brick Testament's always got me thinking in Lego medleys and semaphores.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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